How does a gay man raised in a Southern Black church end up the Executive Director of Washington DC’s LGBTQA synagogue, Bet Mishpachah? Growing up attending the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, Josh Maxey always had a relationship with God and religion, but after hearing his pastor talking about how gay people are destined for hell, he started pulling away from Christianity. As a religious studies minor, many routes for exploring his spirituality were available.
He found his connection to Judaism during a chance encounter with the legendary Temple Emanu-El in New York City, established in 1845, when a loving stranger invited him to sit and pray, and he found himself in tears, and at peace. Josh says that in Judaism, he found a home, where he could be 100% authentic, live his values, and follow his purpose, surrounded by diverse people and their diverse beliefs and ways of being Jewish in the world. We talk about the importance of diversifying leadership and the continual efforts needed to create a fair and equitable space, and the relationship between American Black and Jewish communities. Josh's story is more than an enlightening conversation; it is a testament to the beauty of diversity within the Jewish community and the power of authenticity in faith. Join us for a refreshing viewpoint on faith, race, and identity.
GLOSSARY:
Mishpachah: the Hebrew word for “family”.
Siddur: the Hebrew word for prayerbook, derived from the root meaning “order”, as in, the order of the words and prayers in the service.
Tikkun Olam: meaning “world repair,” is a concept that all human beings are responsible for one another and the world, and for repairing harm and damage through their actions, big or small.
Hadassah: meaning “myrtle tree” in Hebrew, it is a relatively common Jewish girl’s name and the Hebrew name of Queen Esther from the Purim story.
Kvetch: Yiddish for “complain,” meaning both to complain, and what a person who complains is called.
Halachically/halakha: Jewish law code based on the Talmud, which is the central text of Rabbic Judaism
Hebrew Israelites: Commonly called “Black Jews” until the mid-1960s, the Hebrew Israelite movement gained a following in the late 1800s and comprises people of color, primarily African Americans, “who view the biblical Israelites as their historic ancestors.” Some may not necessarily identify as Jews, and the larger group should not be confused with the “Radical Black Israelites” which the SPLC identifies as an antisemitic hate group.
More: Temple Emanu-El is the first Reform Jewish synagogue in the United States and an architectural landmark in the Lower East Side. Bet Misphachah, founded in 1975, is DC’s only LGBTQA synagogue. Join them for services on Fridays and the 2nd and 4th Saturdays. The Jewish Federation of Greater Washington is a community organization that provides support for the Jewish community through social action, impact grants and other connecting and educational activities.
How does a gay man raised in a Southern Black church end up the Executive Director of Washington DC’s LGBTQA synagogue, Bet Mishpachah? Growing up attending the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, Josh Maxey always had a relationship with God and religion, but after hearing his pastor talking about how gay people are destined for hell, he started pulling away from Christianity. As a religious studies minor, many routes for exploring his spirituality were available.
He found his connection to Judaism during a chance encounter with the legendary Temple Emanu-El in New York City, established in 1845, when a loving stranger invited him to sit and pray, and he found himself in tears, and at peace. Josh says that in Judaism, he found a home, where he could be 100% authentic, live his values, and follow his purpose, surrounded by diverse people and their diverse beliefs and ways of being Jewish in the world. We talk about the importance of diversifying leadership and the continual efforts needed to create a fair and equitable space, and the relationship between American Black and Jewish communities. Josh's story is more than an enlightening conversation; it is a testament to the beauty of diversity within the Jewish community and the power of authenticity in faith. Join us for a refreshing viewpoint on faith, race, and identity.
GLOSSARY:
Mishpachah: the Hebrew word for “family”.
Siddur: the Hebrew word for prayerbook, derived from the root meaning “order”, as in, the order of the words and prayers in the service.
Tikkun Olam: meaning “world repair,” is a concept that all human beings are responsible for one another and the world, and for repairing harm and damage through their actions, big or small.
Hadassah: meaning “myrtle tree” in Hebrew, it is a relatively common Jewish girl’s name and the Hebrew name of Queen Esther from the Purim story.
Kvetch: Yiddish for “complain,” meaning both to complain, and what a person who complains is called.
Halachically/halakha: Jewish law code based on the Talmud, which is the central text of Rabbic Judaism
Hebrew Israelites: Commonly called “Black Jews” until the mid-1960s, the Hebrew Israelite movement gained a following in the late 1800s and comprises people of color, primarily African Americans, “who view the biblical Israelites as their historic ancestors.” Some may not necessarily identify as Jews, and the larger group should not be confused with the “Radical Black Israelites” which the SPLC identifies as an antisemitic hate group.
More: Temple Emanu-El is the first Reform Jewish synagogue in the United States and an architectural landmark in the Lower East Side. Bet Misphachah, founded in 1975, is DC’s only LGBTQA synagogue. Join them for services on Fridays and the 2nd and 4th Saturdays. The Jewish Federation of Greater Washington is a community organization that provides support for the Jewish community through social action, impact grants and other connecting and educational activities.
So when I heard the pastor say that you know on Sunday that K people are going to hell, it really shook me to my core and I'm like well, what about me? What does that mean?
Josh:
Here.
Hannah:
I am being this faithful Christian going to church every Sunday, you know praying and all that, but yet I'm going to hell.
Speaker 3:
So, like all this is for what? Exactly? Yeah, exactly.
Josh:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Welcome to Jewish. I spoke to Josh at the end of 2022. Yes, I'm aware that was a while ago. There's only one of me and, as you may recall, that was a very interesting time for the intersection or interaction of the American black and Jewish communities. I want to say right off the bat that we do talk about this in this episode and we talk about identity pretty much the whole episode. So thank you so much, josh, for engaging on that for all of our sakes. Like most of us, josh has many identities and his wisdom and his lived experiences as a convert, as a religious studies minor, as a black man, as a gay man and infinite other things is totally unique and totally fascinating. So thank you, josh, for sharing and y'all enjoy. So you're the big boss at a synagogue, but life did not begin this way for Joshua Maxey.
Hannah:
Correct, correct.
Speaker 3:
So tell me a little bit of your origin story. We talked about some of this the other day, but you know, tell me about how you were raised. I think you said you were actually raised in a family that had a lot of religion, correct?
Hannah:
Absolutely yeah. So I grew up in Rochester, new York cold Rochester, new York, I should add to a big family. I mean I have four brothers and one sister. Mom and dad, you know, really did everything they could to like nurture us and to make sure we had everything that we needed. But I also grew up in a very religious household. We, you know, were Christian and religion is such a huge part of my family, going back to the early 1800s, we actually founded a church in South Carolina, wow, and so, yeah, part of our, you know, annual pilgrimage, I should say, you know, back down south, we always attend, you know, this church, you know, in honor of our ancestors that helped build it. So religion was deeply rooted within my family.
Speaker 3:
And can I ask which denomination, which sect? How did you grow up observing that?
Hannah:
Yes, so African Methodist Episcopal Zionism is a very, very long title there's so much I don't know about Christianity Right. Basically it's. If you know anything about the church, take like Methodism mixed with like kind of high church Episcopalianism.
Hannah:
That's that's what the church is, but it is a predominantly black denomination within the United States. And so, yeah, we would go up, you know, or go down, rather, to South Carolina every summer and we would be at that church almost, you know, if not each Sunday then definitely during the week for, like, bible study or something like that or different, you know, other church events. Actually, my great aunt, who passed away a couple months ago, actually still attended that church and she was one of the, you know, I guess the, the remaining descendants to attend that church.
Speaker 3:
Wow, one of the founding mothers. Exactly Right, that's really something. What did? I'm just curious like? So, in addition to just like showing up at the appointed times in the appointed place, what did observation look like for you growing up in that faith? I mean, was it dogmatic or was it faith based? Does that make sense?
Hannah:
Yeah, so I would say for me it was definitely faith based. You know, if we weren't in church, you know, each Sunday, like I said, then it was, you know, something going on like Bible study, or you know, I remember, in particular for the summers, we would, you know, go to vacation Bible school, and so that's what I would spend my entire, you know, basically like Christian camp.
Speaker 3:
So Jewish summer camp is not that special. Okay, got it Like in my head I thought it was, but I guess it's not Right.
Hannah:
Right, right. And so you know, because of that and because of my upbringing, like my faith, you know, and God was just integral, it was a part of who I, who I, was. It was, you know, kind of not even like an afterthought, you know it's just it's who I am, it's what my family does, and so this is what you know, I'm expected to do, and this is what I'm expected to believe.
Speaker 3:
So would you say there wasn't a whole lot of choice involved, it was just sort of a default behavior.
Hannah:
Absolutely yeah, it was definitely default, like you know. Like I said, our family founded this church. Yeah, and then you know, it just was so integral to to our family.
Speaker 3:
But the God part was always there for you, so that was not. Doesn't sound like that was a crossover issue.
Hannah:
Absolutely, yeah, yeah. So I always say that that for me growing up, you know the religious aspect of you know, going to church and like celebrating the holidays.
Hannah:
that was, you know, more for my family, but I always felt this like deep connection to God or the divine, you know. However you want to describe that experience. And so when I was, you know, many years later, trying to figure out, you know, where I fit in in this world, God always was in that equation. It wasn't, like, you know, I went through like a phase of not believing in God. Yeah yeah, God was always in the equation.
Speaker 3:
So for you was it more like not so much do I believe in God, but how do I find the way to commune with God Exactly In the way that feels right for?
Hannah:
me Exactly Commune and connect with you, know creation. You know, I think that's a huge part of my experience with God is, you know, recognizing that you know, God is not just founded, like the prayer books. And you know, I find you know so much strength and guidance and like the Sidur, or you know reciting the Psalms, but God isn't just there. God is in relationships.
Hannah:
God is in. You know nature, and that was that thinking is very different from what you know I grew up with. You know God is, you know, in the Bible, and that's it. And you know and God is in. You know the words that the preacher says and that's it. So, yeah, that really didn't fit me.
Speaker 3:
So tell me about. I mean, you had sort of a we briefly talked about this and I don't want to downplay anyone's journey but compared to a lot of the like struggle, I think a lot of people find their way to Judaism from a place of lack of faith, if that makes sense, or like in the like. I like the idea of there being a God situation, but none of the ones that I've seen fit me. It doesn't sound like that was your journey. You had a relatively I don't want to say peaceful but maybe amicable journey through spirituality towards Judaism. Can you just like when did it begin? And kind of walk me through how you started to actually wonder if this was the right place for you?
Hannah:
Yeah, you know, as a gay man, that's a huge part of my identity. But also being a black man is a huge part of my identity and I would say those two you know parts of me really did shape, I guess, my decision to I won't say turn away, but I guess turn away from Christianity and, like, find other avenues to express my spirituality. And so really my, my journey began, I would say, when I was maybe 12 or 13.
Josh:
Oh, wow.
Hannah:
When I first started to realize that.
Hannah:
You know, I don't like girls you know, and you know, right around that time was when, you know, gay marriage started being talked about. You know, publicly, within the public square, and you know that was the first time that I had heard someone saying this was, you know, a pastor, that gay people are going to hell. And you know, up until that point I had known that, you know I was always different, but like, really didn't think anything of it. So when I heard the pastor say that you know, on Sunday, that gay people are going to hell, it really shook me to my core and I'm like well, what about me? What does that mean?
Hannah:
Here I am being this faithful Christian going to church every Sunday, you know praying and all that, but yet I'm going to hell.
Speaker 3:
So, like all this is for what? Exactly? Yeah, exactly.
Hannah:
So that really, I would say, was the like, the start of my transition. But of course you know I stayed in Christianity up until my college years.
Speaker 3:
So yeah, was it that simple that you left home, you went to college, you were exposed to other ways of thinking, or I mean, because it's not simple, right, like having, and I think for a lot of people, I should probably start by asking you where you went to college, because what I was going to say was like I think for a lot of people, college is like this very secularizing experience where you get to entertain all your intellectual pursuits and like the spiritual side of things, like I mean, maybe it comes up like if you're doing drugs at a party.
Speaker 3:
It's not unless you go to like a religious higher institution, like maybe Notre Dame.
Hannah:
Which I did.
Speaker 3:
Oh, you went to Notre Dame, no not Notre Dame, but another. I was like, okay, I went to a.
Hannah:
Catholic college Yep.
Speaker 3:
Got it.
Hannah:
St Bonaventure University.
Josh:
Okay.
Hannah:
Go bonis and so, yeah, I was actually very involved in their campus ministry there. Would help out with their church services on Sundays was involved.
Hannah:
They had this beautiful, you know mountain retreat about an hour away from campus and I was involved in that and you know, planning these spiritual retreats for some of the students and also like adults that would just come and visit, and so it was still a part of me. And then you know, I guess I would say maybe my junior or senior year is when I finally decided to come out to my family. So all my friends in college, all my friends in high school knew, my family also probably knew, but Right, right, it was something that we didn't talk about. You know the awkward oh, when you're going to get a girlfriend while I'm too busy.
Speaker 3:
Oh, did that happen? Those conversations all the time, all the time yeah.
Hannah:
When are you like? You know why aren't you dating? Well, I don't have time to date. I mean, I'm in student government, I'm in you know this and that and that.
Speaker 3:
You couldn't be like I am dating, you just don't realize it.
Hannah:
Exactly, and so you know it was around that time I think my junior year actually when I decided to come out to my family, which I did not do it in a good way. I did it over phone. Over the phone, it was also my 21st birthday, so I had, you know, a little drinks and me.
Speaker 3:
Oh boy, you're like. I have an excellent idea.
Hannah:
I'm like, yeah, let's do this, I'm 21. I'm an adult now, right, so they can't cut me off, okay.
Speaker 3:
How did it go?
Hannah:
The best way. Okay, but it went well. It went well. You know, I called my mom and I think she was beyond shock. It was probably like midnight, I could only imagine and she's like okay, well, we can talk about it some more tomorrow.
Speaker 3:
She was like what is going on?
Hannah:
Exactly. But you know, over the years my family has been so supportive of me and you know, of course it was a little awkward. But what I appreciate, which I know a lot of people don't have, is, you know, my family was supportive from day one and, yes, they had questions, you know, they did ask. You know, oh, are you sure this isn't just a phase? I'm like, yeah, no, it's not.
Speaker 3:
And I think it's like do you feel like that's in keeping with their understanding of like being a good Christian and a good person and God is love, or do you feel like that's more, maybe a small, I don't want to say rebellion, but like a small personal way of sort of breaking from the church on this because of this human that they love?
Hannah:
Yeah, I think probably a little bit of both actually, you know, I think with my parents they're going to love me no matter what, and they just want what's the best for me. So even if they do have like any grievances towards it, they at least don't share it with me.
Speaker 3:
All right, I'll take it.
Hannah:
Yeah, so that coming out led me to just think about everything else in my life. And you know if I am going to be, you know this churchgoer. You know Christian from like what I was raised in how do I? Fit in. And at that time, you know, I felt like my only options were to, you know, be a celibate man for the rest of my life, or go into the ministry and also be a celibate man.
Hannah:
Yeah like being married to a woman was never an option for me, like I never would do that, and so I really had to think and I pulled away from Christianity. I started, you know, going to different routes.
Hannah:
So you know, looking at the Episcopal Church you know that's Christian, but just really trying to figure out like what it is that I believe about spirituality and it also helped that I was a religious studies minor, so I was exposed to you know different religious practices, but it wasn't until, you know, I graduated and then moved here to Washington DC to do a year of volunteering with the homeless community and that's where I felt like my spirituality was reignited working with the homeless community and the unhoused. Just the amount of faith that I saw within. You know the unhoused and how they were so spiritual, even though they lacked.
Hannah:
You know some of the most you know necessary things in life really inspired me and so I began to, you know, really put my spirituality back into practice and, you know, recognizing that. You know, god again is in, you know all things not just in like religion. Yeah, and I guess how I came to Judaism was actually, you know, I was visiting friends in New York City, where I go often Lots of Jews.
Speaker 3:
We like it Right.
Hannah:
Also in Rochester. Yeah, exactly, I know right.
Hannah:
But yeah, I was visiting friends in New York and you know I had never really done like the touristy things and so I decided to walk around Central Park before my train back to DC and I was on the Upper East Side and I saw this beautiful building and I'm like, oh, what's that? I'm curious, let's go in. And I walked in and it ended up being a synagogue. It was Temple Emmanuel in New York City and I had never that was my first time in a synagogue and I remember, you know, the woman she was a docent or a greeter was just so warm and welcoming to me and she, you know, gave me a tour of the archives and that was amazing in itself, just seeing all the ancient Judaica that they had you know, preserved for generations, and like just reading the story of you know the congregation, but the story of the Jewish story, which you know up until that point.
Hannah:
I read about things but to see it, you know, up close and personal, was an experience. And then, you know, towards the end of the tour, you know, she took me back down into the main sanctuary and was showing me, you know, the beautiful mosaics and the designs and she invited me to just sit and pray. And at that moment I'm like, well, I can do that, but I haven't prayed in a while. Also, I'm not Jewish, so I don't know like what's gonna we set off prayers here Right, right.
Hannah:
So I mean it was I'm like okay and I did, and I remember having like the most spiritually awakening like experience that. I've ever felt it almost felt like this weight was lifted off my shoulder.
Hannah:
Like they were tear-shed and I'm not a huge crier, but I started crying and I just remember feeling at peace and feeling at home and once I left you know, I think the woman and I get teary-eyed thinking about it I thanked her and went back to DC and immediately, you know, started researching more about Judaism and, you know, learning more about the theology, especially like Tikkun Olam and you know repairing the world and what that means. And you know, it all matched up to my core beliefs and to this day, when I always like think about the story, like my conversion story, I always, you know, say it started with one person this one woman who was just so welcoming, so loving and so embracing of me.
Hannah:
Didn't even know me you know, not required.
Josh:
Right right, you're one of us.
Hannah:
Right, but shared so much compassion and love with me and actually last week I finally found out what her name was, because that has always been like my biggest regret of not finding out what her name is and her name's Hadassah Of course it is she has since passed away, but you know I was sharing with a colleague of mine who actually did the research to find out who this woman was. You know I said I keep her memory alive by me living out my Jewish. You know identity.
Speaker 3:
Her memory is a blessing.
Josh:
The best way that I can exactly, truly truly oh my gosh, I have goosebumps.
Speaker 3:
Wow, I wonder did you ever reach out to Emmanuel and tell them the story I did?
Hannah:
not. I think you know a few folks that have heard the story, who know clergy. Have, you know, expressed my story to them?
Speaker 3:
I believe, but I haven't ever personally done that, We'll have to send them the recording you know We'll have to add them in the Right.
Hannah:
No, we can do better than that, but yes.
Speaker 3:
You get where I go, but that's so. I'm really happy that I was actually gonna ask if you ever sort of found out who that was.
Hannah:
Last week Wow.
Speaker 3:
So like after we talked.
Hannah:
Yes, yes, I got an email.
Josh:
From a colleague, yeah, the sheriff, exactly.
Speaker 3:
That's wild.
Hannah:
Exactly.
Speaker 3:
That's so.
Speaker 3:
I mean, I'm noticing a trend, and I was saying this to my friend Nancy last night.
Speaker 3:
Every single one of you the three of you that I've spoken to so far, but also Rabbi Fischel, everyone I've talked to about their conversion story always ends up hitting on this phrase of home, of coming home or being home, or I knew I was home. Can I just ask, like, especially being raised in and you know I was raised in this tradition, so for me it's like this is the air I breathe, the water that I swim in, right, like I really think about how it might be different from other traditions other than you know, as I got older, I really started to mark all the ways that I'm like that's weird, why would you do it that way? And then it's like again as I got older and I think you have to leave, right, you leave and come back. You leave and come back, leaving Tucson, leaving my parents' house, leaving Georgia and then coming back to Arizona. Being like is this because I wasn't raised Christian? That I think that that's so fucking weird.
Speaker 3:
It's like why would you think about it like that? Why would you treat people that way? I don't understand why you would talk to your kids X kind of way, or why. Why wouldn't you talk?
Hannah:
to your kids X way.
Speaker 3:
And it's like, the more I think about it, I'm like is that because I'm Jewish, I don't get? It right Like is it just because I was raised? What is the feeling of being home, and how is that different than how it felt for you in the religion in which you were raised?
Hannah:
Yeah. So the simple answer to that, I would say, is being home to me is being 100% authentic and being 100% who you were created to be. I couldn't be that in Christianity, at least in the Christianity that I was raised in. It was very difficult for me and I had to make a choice. I had to make a decision Either I hide these aspects of myself that I was created to be which is not something that I think we should be doing or I find another path that will spiritually enrich me and also just give me joy in everything that I do. I love being Jewish. I love that Judaism has embraced me and now I am fully involved in Jewish life.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, you went all in Exactly.
Hannah:
I have a wonderful community here at Bitmesh that I help lead, but also for my personal spiritual practice. I have a wonderful community at Washington Hebrew congregation, which is where I met Rabbi Fischel, who did my conversion process with me.
Hannah:
Even the work that I'm doing with them in terms of racial equity and belonging, that all stems from my experience of being able to show up to places being my full self and I want everyone to be able to do that as well, not only if you're an LGBTQ person, but if you're a Jew of color you're a Jew, who may have a disability there is a place for everyone in Judaism. I share all the time that. One of the other things that attracted me to Judaism is that it's just such a beautiful, diverse people. I think, sometimes that gets lost in media portrayals of what Judaism is.
Speaker 3:
I am not a bearded man waving a chicken around in the air. That's not a thing, just so you know Exactly Glad we cleared that up.
Hannah:
Exactly, I actually had the chance to go to Israel the beginning of November. I was shocked at the diversity there. I'm like this is it. This is what the world needs to see is that being Jewish doesn't look one way or doesn't sound one way. There are many, many different aspects and cultures of Judaism that I love. That all fits and it all fits.
Josh:
I love that.
Speaker 3:
This is such a Perhaps this was a selfish enterprise and I didn't even think about it when I started.
Hannah:
I was like tell me about what's great about how I already live.
Speaker 3:
It didn't really occur to me because I only have my own experience, which is so funny. I remember a girl that I went to grad school with who we don't really talk anymore. I remember we were One of my degrees that I did was a Middle Eastern and North African Studies degree, alongside a Judaic Studies grad certificate and a journalism degree. We were having a conversation in Arizona, so in the pool one time a bunch of us meanest kids and kids were all like almost there. I remember talking about something I can't even remember how it came up Her family.
Speaker 3:
She's the daughter of first generation immigrants from Middle East and Europe, I think, calls herself white passing, and I think I said something about being white passing as well and she was like sorry, howard, you's not white. I was like oh, Okay, yeah. Do you want to come talk to the people in Savannah?
Josh:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Because, let me tell you I, am not white to them. You better believe that. So I have that lived experience of a very ethnically ambiguous person who, unless you don't, unless you know the curly hair and the body type, okay, she's probably Jewish, which is a pretty specific knowledge. So I've just moved through the world being raised how I was raised, and no one really asks me about it.
Speaker 3:
The people who know me do, which is a big reason actually that I wanted to do this podcast. I'm thinking of the good friends of mine who I met in the South, who were like, oh, you're Jewish. I've never been a Jewish person before and I'm like, actually, you probably have. Right but like how would that have come up Exactly?
Speaker 3:
To which they're like oh, I didn't think about that. And then they come to me with questions like what do I say to people on Yom Kippur? Is it okay to say happy Yom Kippur or hey, is it okay for me to light the candles with my kid? They were curious. They saw it at school. Am I allowed to do that if I'm not Jewish? For Hanukkah? It's like you can do whatever you want. You know, all the time all the questions bring them. The other thing that's interesting to me is it's not even like you don't have to come in here with any intentions, right? Like you don't have to come in here asking me to join Torah study or see the memorabilia. Whoever you are, you're welcome to walk in the door.
Hannah:
It doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:
And I guess where I'm going with this is like are there parts of your experience as a Jewish person that where you can feel these other parts of your identity? Like, how is it different living those identities as a Jewish person? Is there a difference in the way you move through the world and specifically inside of this community, from before you started that journey?
Hannah:
Yeah, well, I would say the difference. Now that I've seen is I'm more comfortable, you know.
Josh:
Oh yeah.
Hannah:
And walking, you know, in Jewish spaces. You know, Because I think in the beginning, you know, there was awkwardness to it because, kind of like what you were explaining, I walk into a synagogue. I can't turn off my blackness, you know I can. Maybe you know, turn off me being gay although I joke when people are always like, oh, you're gay. I'm like really sometimes I feel like there were rainbows coming out of my mouth, but anyways, oh boy.
Speaker 3:
The way we see ourselves. We see how other people see it. It's really yeah okay.
Hannah:
And so, yeah, so I can't turn that off. And you know, I think there was, you know, some level of discomfort, you know awkward instances where people, would you know, ask me. Oh, you know, immediately ask me. I'm like, oh, are you Jewish? And then we'll have to, you know, go through like laundry list of everything. But I think that's changing, especially here in the DC Jewish community, because there's been a lot of effort to, I guess, change the narrative you know, not only within synagogues, but just within, like all Jewish spaces about like what it means to be Jewish, and who is Jewish?
Hannah:
You know, I'm on the board of directors here at the Jewish Federation of Washington and so we're doing that work there, and I also do some work with the reform movement as well, and so these are conversations that are necessary and they're happening and I think we're moving in the right direction, where, you know, kind of like what I said in the beginning, is that everyone who walks into Jewish spaces feels like they're welcome, and not only feel like they welcome, but feel like they belong, and that they don't have to defend their presence.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, how refreshing, as a Jewish person, to consider a time when we don't have to defend our presence, right, I know, or just our existence at all.
Hannah:
It's such a weird time.
Josh:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
And forgive me if this is an insensitive question, but it's. You know, part of the reason I did this is because I've had a lot of my friends. In particular, I can think of, like you know, three of my black male friends coming to me being like what do you think about Kanye?
Josh:
Tell me about what you think about Kyrie.
Speaker 3:
And I'm like yeah, do we have to do it over Instagram?
Hannah:
Messenger.
Josh:
Do you?
Speaker 3:
want to like, have a coffee, like how it's not. I mean, it's complicated, right, do you? Are you finding in this particular, in this specific moment, especially in American culture, are you finding conflict between your identities as or, shall I say, are you finding others have an expectation of conflict between your identities?
Hannah:
Yeah Well, I would say personally like it has been a challenge, for a couple of reasons I think. Although I feel very comfortable within the Jewish community, you know I still, when we're talking about anti-semitism and anti-racism, I get a little nervous about like speaking out publicly, because I don't want you know my comments to be mischievous or anything like that.
Hannah:
So that was a challenge and it was a challenge with other Jews of color that I spoke with, having the same sentiments, and I would say the other challenge that I've seen and felt is that, taking like what you know, kanye West or you know Kairi said I worried and I still worry that it creates an unsafe place for Jews of color within our community. Yeah, you know, I remember like I was gonna say bitching, but I guess I'm like you can say bitching, we bitch, Kvachin.
Speaker 3:
Kvachin works too.
Hannah:
But really just being so angry. You know, after seeing all this. You know I was speaking with another friend of mine who does a lot of work for inclusion. I'm like you know Kairi and Kanye basically have like set us back and you know the work that we're doing especially in creating places of belonging for Jews of color.
Hannah:
Because now I worry that, you know, if you know a Jew of color walks into a place, they'll be thought of, as you know, being a hero Israelite, which is not, you know, which is not the case. And then I also worry because there are, you know, I guess, organizations or Jews of color who you know are not a part of, like the Hebrew-Israelite movement or especially those, like you know, french groups, yeah, but do through tradition or through whatever.
Hannah:
Have adopted Jewish practices, but they may not be affiliated with you know, like a movement, or, you know, holocically recognize.
Speaker 3:
Or they may not even realize these are Jewish practices, Right right, right.
Hannah:
And so I wonder what you know how that relationship between you know, those folks and, I guess, mainstream Judaism will be like.
Josh:
Yeah.
Hannah:
It is a line. You know that I have to walk sometimes as a black person. But I'm hoping that you know, as we continue on and you know, continuously fight anti-Semitism, that we recognize as a community that fighting both anti-Semitism and anti-racism you know they're one and the same, they're linked.
Josh:
Yeah, they're linked to each other.
Hannah:
You know it's all about. You know, getting rid of white supremacy, yeah, and if we recognize that, you know anti-Semitism and anti-racism are one and the same. You know we're fighting white supremacy. I think we'll then find more dialogue between the black community and the Jewish community. Yeah, you know where we're working together and actually having those deep conversations.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I was talking to a friend of mine over the weekend who is a producer, or last week who is a producer in Atlanta and he has a rich family history. This is a total tangent of he's from South Philly and his dad was a producer and he was like, so he has this really rich tradition of like inherited knowledge of the like Jewish black music scene and the thing that I'm hearing when he's telling me these stories of like, oh, here's another you know R&B song produced by a Jewish person with it's black music produced by Jews, and I'm like yeah, because we were locked out of the same rooms. Yeah, Right, so if you're going to lock us out of the rooms, we're going to look at each other and be like all right, who else is here? Right, Okay, let's just do it ourselves. So we'll just do it.
Hannah:
Exactly.
Speaker 3:
And it breaks my heart that that narrative is lost.
Hannah:
Right Yep.
Speaker 3:
Because that's such a big part of it too, especially the specific lived American experience of both people of African descent and of Jewish extraction. My grandfather had to lie. He had, I think I can't remember the exact narrative but basically he bought a house in a part of Chicago that Jews were not allowed to live, and my aunt still has memories and she told me this about him saying to her hey, make sure when you go to school you don't tell anyone where we live. Wow, yeah.
Speaker 3:
Or you know and conversely, like, just make sure that you don't mention to anyone that were Jewish, that house could have been taken away from them if they had found, been found out secretly being Jewish in this neighborhood. Not allowed.
Josh:
Right.
Speaker 3:
So I mean, like you say it's the same, it's the same struggle, like it doesn't matter, and this is the thing. The only takeaway is like there can be more than one victim.
Hannah:
Exactly.
Speaker 3:
And we can be victimized or whatever. We can experience multiple things Exactly. So it's not an either or the dichotomy of me having to choose who is the bigger victim. Exactly, I'm like I can't, we're not doing that. It's a false conversation, it's false Right. You mentioned that you did Bible study every week, and I'm so curious about that because you know, of course don't ask me if I remember anything.
Josh:
That actually tells me a lot.
Speaker 3:
Well, and the only thing I'm curious about is like, because you do Torah study now too right? How are they different from each other? Were you lectured at versus talked to?
Hannah:
I don't know, yeah, that's that's. I'm glad you mentioned that, cause I think one of the other beauties that I find in Judaism is being able to question. I say all the time that at least in the branch of Christianity that I grew up in, it was pay, pray and obey, and you don't deviate out of that, and so Can you decode that for me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So pray like you know, go to church, pay so and I would say most Christian denominations, you know, you give tithes or offerings.
Josh:
The collection play would be what I would love.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Hannah:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they passed the collection play, you know, and that's all. For, like, the building up of the kingdom of God is what we were taught, and then obey, basically obeying. You know the word of God, but the authorities which are like the pastors, and so in all of that there was no question like this is, this, is what you do, and so when I first went to a tourist study, it was very confused as to what are all these people yelling at the rabbi about, like you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 3:
Wait, I thought who is the rabbi? Right, right, right.
Hannah:
I'm like what? Like the rabbi doesn't have, like you know, final authority on what the text means. Like, what are we talking about?
Josh:
Why is there a discussion?
Hannah:
But that's just so beautiful and I find tourist study to be very engaging and very enriching for me because you know I get to hear, like you know, not only the rabbi's perspective but like the perspective of, you know, my peers, and then also like learn you know something new, instead of being preached at which you know, when I was in, you know, bible school. That's basically what it was. It was being preached at.
Hannah:
with no real dialogue, you only die. I mean, if there was dialogue or any conversation, you know you do this or you're gonna go to hell Like that's all.
Speaker 3:
Was it like hey, did you read the scripture? Does that make sense? Like cause? I mean, I think I've had other people tell me that their experience with religion is basically like we weren't really even asked to read anything. It was more like there was someone on the stage they told us what to think, and then we, like, went home with their lesson about the thing.
Hannah:
Exactly, yep, yeah, so I mean Bible study like privately was encouraged, but in terms of like the formal, like church setting, yeah, it basically was. You know the pastor interpreting some texts and then, telling us what it means, and that's all.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah. So it was almost like more about the social aspect, I guess, about just being there together.
Josh:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Tell me about the work you're doing now. Tell me about Beit Mishpacha, and tell me about the work that you, that sort of drives your I think probably drives your life, would not be an overstatement, would that be correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hannah:
So I am the executive director of Beit Mishpacha and we are DC's only LGBTQ synagogue, and so we'll be celebrating actually 50 years in the community in 2025, which so happens to coincide with World Pride which will be here in DC.
Speaker 3:
Oh, by design? No doubt it's a conspiracy. Oh wait, no, we don't make those jokes sorry, sorry.
Hannah:
And so, yeah, I do a lot of outreach to, you know, lgbtq Jews in the area. We have services each Friday night, located at the JCC and DuPont Circle, and also on the second and fourth Saturdays of the month. So my day to day is just a lot of outreach, you know, attending events, meetings, but you know, and just trying to get the word out, you know that there is a place for LGBTQ, jews. The gospel yeah right, the gospel of the LGBTQ Jews right Religion jokes.
Speaker 3:
Exactly the gospel of the gay Jews they were right Solid yeah okay.
Hannah:
So I mean, it's a lot of like community outreach, which I love, so I'm getting to know so many people and then so that's my paying job, I would say. And then, like I mentioned, I'm on the board of Jewish Federation here in DC. I'm also on the Social Action Committee for the Reform Movement, which right now we're actually working on reparations, which is very interesting at this time, very interesting. And I'm also, you know, a member of Washington Hebrew Congregation. So I do a lot of work with their racial equity and belonging work as well.
Hannah:
So, most recently, we're working on inclusion for folks with disabilities and how we can you know reimagine what our space looks like and what the congregant or visitor experience is. You know at Shabbat services, or just you know entering into our building.
Josh:
Yeah.
Hannah:
And so, yeah, I have fully put my entire self into Jewish life since, I guess, my official conversion a couple of years ago. And it drives me, it's what gives me joy, it's what keeps me motivated, and so I say, as, how many years that I have on this earth it will be dedicated to Judaism and, you know, making sure that all Jews you know have a place to call home and making sure that we all have a place to belong.
Speaker 3:
What remains yet for us to work on and do? What should we be vigilant of? And thinking about from your perspective.
Hannah:
I think we have to strive to continue to build community, and I am like a huge fan of just interpersonal relationships and like building those and you know, especially when it comes to people of color within the Jewish community, there has to be a way for us to invite you know, Jews of color to the table.
Hannah:
So, you know, one thing that we're working on at Federation is, you know, what does the makeup of our board of directors looks like and why does it look that way? And you know, is it really reflective of, you know, the entire community? Yeah, and so there has to be more interpersonal relationships, I think, and community building amongst each other.
Speaker 3:
Well, that seems not easy but doable, right, Exactly exactly. It is not your job to finish the task, but neither may you desist from the work. Yes exactly. Thanks for listening to Jew Ish. If you like what you hear, please give us a follow and don't forget to tell a friend who might be a little Jew curious. It really is the best way to help people find us. Also, make sure you check out the show notes for a glossary of terms you might have heard. In this week's episode, jew Ish is a Say More production.