What's really going on in Israel, Part 1

An American, a Canadian and an Israeli Jewish educator walk into a….well a discussion. About the Israel-Hamas war, the state of Gaza and state of mind of Israelis, no less. So, this conversation is really no joke. Huge thanks to Yair Alon, Adam Levi and Zev Dever for this sometimes hard, always thoughtful, and very nuanced and compassionate conversation, and the healing and shared understanding they are working to reach.
 
You may remember my baby brother Zev from Season 1, when he taught us about how much of modern Western Judaism formed into what we see in places like the U.S. today. He's recently back from Israel, and he and his colleagues Adam and Yair squeezed in a late night podcast recording with me while in D.C. on a listening and discussion tour for their NGO Hechalutz, exploring what American Jewish communities are experiencing in the aftermath of the October 7 Hamas attack. They bring us clear-eyed assessments of what Israelis and American Jews alike are experiencing, and how those might create challenges or hopes for a peaceful resolution to the war. Listen in to hear what Israel was like in the immediate aftermath of October 7, how Israelis are feeling now, and the implications of coping--or not--with the destruction of some of their most basic concepts of safety and security. 

This was a long conversation, and cutting too much would have damaged the depth of the discussion, so we've divided it into 2 parts. Please be sure to come back for part 2, where we'll get a deep dive into the huge differences in the discourse for American and Israeli Jews, and hear about the individual, and yet sadly universal, experiences of these three on October 7, and how they personally are working to process all that has happened and all that remains to be faced. 

GLOSSARY:

Kibbutz: traditionally agrarian, these communal living settlements now take various forms around an "intentional", voluntary social contract. 

Aaliya: from the Hebrew word meaning "to rise" or "to go up", this is the term for becoming a citizen of Israel. "Olim" is the plural noun for people who have done this, like Zev.

Diaspora: a general term for peoples living outside their homeland. Generically often refers to Jews living outside Israel.

Habonim D'ror: 

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: 

Ezra Klein Show: She polled Gazans on Oct. 6. Here's what she found.

Effects of the war on Israeli and Palestinian economies.

Hostage families protest the Israeli government

Israel's far right on resettling Gaza

Learn about the Rise of the Israeli Right and Hamas from one of the very best in the biz, NPR's Throughline.  

Transcript

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THIS IS AN AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT WITH AUTOMATIC SPEAKER DETECTION. The robots are good, but they're not perfect. 

[00:00:00] Adam: You want to know the differences between a Montreal bagel and a New York bagel? A bigger hole? Yeah. Montreal bagels have a much larger hole. If you've ever noticed New York bagels, I had to see sometimes I've no, sometimes I've no merge all the way. So when people say a New York bagel, they mean 

[00:00:15] Hannah: the puffy, 

[00:00:15] Adam: the puffy, the bread, the bread.

[00:00:18] Adam: Yeah. It's a bun. It's not a bagel. It's a puffy bun that has basically no hole in it. 

[00:00:24] Zev: Lends itself much better to sandwiches. If you want a bagel sandwich. 

[00:00:27] Adam: Yeah. Well, you know, it also lends itself well to sandwiches. A bun. A bun, exactly. 

[00:00:32] Hannah: Well, we have the intro to our podcast, gentlemen.

[00:00:39] Hannah: Hello, welcome back to Jew ish. The voices you just heard are my fantastic baby brother, Zeb, who you met in the first season in the episode about being culturally Jewish, which, if you have not heard it, Please go back and listen. It's super relevant always, but especially right now. And his two fantastic friends, Yair and Adam.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] Hannah: I am aware that this episode took a long time to publish, but I had good reason. And it is, I was waiting for Zeb to get back from Israel because I don't know about you, but with all of the emotion and crisis and pain swirling around our heads at a thousand foot view, you just wish there was someone you could ask who had firsthand knowledge of what's going on.

[00:01:21] Hannah: And comes from a place of nuance and context. So Zebi was just in Israel, working with a delegation of Jewish intentional community leaders who were there to volunteer and express solidarity, but also take some lessons. And it just seemed worth waiting for him to come back? and get his perspective and share with you.

[00:01:42] Hannah: What I did not expect is he was going to bring two other amazing Jewish educators. But what that also meant is that there were four microphones and it was kind of unexpected and I'm just one person and I had a lot of audio to clean up and edit and it was a long conversation because There's a lot to talk about.

[00:01:58] Hannah: I also didn't think it was really [00:02:00] fair to cut too much from the conversation Wouldn't want to deny you or them the full spectrum of nuance. So I ended up doing something else I've never done before and that is split this into two parts. So this is part one. Please be sure you come back for part two I'll get that I can One more note.

[00:02:18] Hannah: This was recorded before the latest round of talks failed, just before Ramadan. Please think of this as it was intended, as a high level, clear eyed, very honest view of what's happening in Israel on the ground. and in the Israeli mindset and what the implications of that might be for peace and a resolution to this war.

[00:02:41] Hannah: One way or the other, any kind of peaceful future is going to have to pass through Israeli society. We also look pretty closely at how the discourse differs from Israel to here and what that might mean for how Americans perspectives might not be the most realistic. or even the most accurate. Since there's [00:03:00] so much to dig into, this is a really meaty episode, as indicated by this incredibly long intro.

[00:03:06] Hannah: The show notes are going to include a little bit less in terms of terminology, so that I can add a lot of helpful supplemental materials, including listening materials, and recent stories, and some sources that the guys have cited that kind of thing. But Don't forget you can always check the show notes of previous episodes if you hear a term that you don't recognize.

[00:03:25] Hannah: And don't forget to come back for part two. Here's the show.

[00:03:33] Hannah: My famous brother is here. My podcast famous brother. 

[00:03:37] Zev: Returning cameo. 

[00:03:38] Hannah: Exactly. And you're, and you're wonderful friends. So if you guys would introduce yourselves. 

[00:03:43] Yair: Great. So my name is Yair, Yair Alon, and I am coming here from Israel. I live in the south of the country, in a town called Mitzpe Ramon. And I work in an Israeli NGO called [00:04:00] Hechalutz.

[00:04:01] Yair: works with the world Jewry interacting different topics that have to do with the Israel. 

[00:04:09] Zev: I am Zev, most famously Hannah's younger brother. In addition to that, I'm, I work with Habonim Dror, a Jewish youth movement, a labor Zionist youth movement here in North America and also in other countries around the world.

[00:04:24] Zev: Yeah, you're also neglected to mention that we live together in an urban kibbutz in Mitzpe Ramon, in a Cooperative co housing community and intentional community in the desert. I've now lived in Israel, been in Israel for a total of almost 10 years, although I've been back in the States for the last six months of it.

[00:04:42] Zev: So I'll actually celebrate 10 years, which will be strange. 

[00:04:46] Hannah: Oh, it feels anticlimactic. Sorry, bro.

[00:04:52] Adam: My name is Adam Levy. I I live in the northern city of Akko, also in a urban kibbutz. [00:05:00] I'm originally from Victoria, British Columbia, Canada. I made Aliyah in 2011. So I've been in Israel now for, well, 13 years. And I'm the director of Echalutz. Echalutz is an organization. The The literal translation of the word means the pioneer.

[00:05:21] Adam: It was an organization a long, long time ago that prepared people for Aliyah moving to Israel. Today, we took inspiration from the name, but we, we founded or created the organization about 20 years ago. And it is a collection of primarily Olim from English speaking countries, meaning Jews from abroad that moved to Israel.

[00:05:44] Adam: And as Yair said, we are focused on bridging between the reality in Israel. And Jewish communities around the world. Also specifically from a progressive lens. 

[00:05:55] Yair: We actually first and foremost came to [00:06:00] get sort of the pulse on. What these people have been experiencing specifically since October 7th, which was one of the primary reasons for this tour trip here.

[00:06:13] Yair: But yeah, today we had a day of meetings with actually different people from different parts of the, of the world. I don't know even if to say the community here, because it's comprised of a lot of different sections. We met with someone from the Federation of Greater Washington, and we met with the, the president of Americans for Peace Now, and just now we came from a meeting with the people running J Street U, and in general, I think what we're trying to do is figure out What the communities here need.

[00:06:53] Yair: Also, we think that some of the things that we have encountered in our educational work with the diaspora [00:07:00] Jewry, and specifically with progressive Jews in the diaspora, we think we have some meaningful tools to deal with the issues that come up post October 7th in these communities. 

[00:07:10] Adam: Yeah. So all of us kind of do some mix of, you know, working with Jewish communities abroad working with diaspora Jewish communities, and also are involved in activism, education, and social change on the ground in Israel.

[00:07:25] Adam: And one of the the essential elements of what is Hechalutz is also kind of the mixing of those two things, because I think a lot of the time the work on the ground and really what's happening. inside of Israeli society. Now it doesn't meet most people abroad and also Jews abroad. Now, that doesn't, Jews abroad obviously deal a lot with Israel.

[00:07:49] Adam: They talk a lot about Israel. Even something as simple, one of the examples I give is if you look at Haaretz English, Haaretz being one of the major Israeli newspapers, new, and one of the major [00:08:00] newspapers that they produce in English that most diaspora Jews read, you will find articles about, primarily about the conflict.

[00:08:08] Adam: Occasionally also about other things having to do with religious freedom, but, 

[00:08:11] Yair: And a few other things. But how about Israeli politics and like shifts in Israeli politics? 

[00:08:17] Adam: But if you look at how it's in Hebrew, it's, it's not that it's a different newspaper, but the focus, the stories that are coming out, the things that they're talking about are different.

[00:08:27] Adam: And I think because like. Also specific, I can say for myself and for a lot of the people involved in our organization, that work that we're doing on the ground, the first hand experience on the ground I think is sometimes really missing in the kind of interaction between the Asper Jews and Jews in Israel.

[00:08:45] Adam: And because I've spent my life on the back and forth between those two things. Yeah, that's, that's kind of some of the educational work we're doing. 

[00:08:52] Hannah: Well, and that's interesting. So when you say the work that you do on the ground, are you talking about the educational work? Are you talking about the activism?

[00:08:58] Hannah: Is it really about [00:09:00] dialogue? 

[00:09:00] Adam: The members of Hakaluta are involved in a lot of different fields. They're involved in a lot of different fields. I'll say specifically for myself, I think the two, Most recent things that I've been most involved in. One is after October the 7th, there was huge groups of. There were many people who lived in the North and the South country had to leave their homes.

[00:09:20] Adam: They were internally displaced. For instance, one of the things that I was doing over the months of October, November, and a bit into December was working with those communities. Now, what I was doing with those communities was essentially running a made up education system for kibbutz from the North of Israel that had to in the space of two hours, leave their kibbutz and move into a hotel in the in the North of Israel.

[00:09:45] Adam: And they were totally lost, like they, you know, imagine having to leave your house one day and move into a hotel, and you have no idea when you're going to go back, and, you know, what I was doing there was education, you could say, because I was running their education system, [00:10:00] mainly trying to help the parents deal with the fact that their children suddenly had no school, no daycare, no after school care, just stuck with them all day.

[00:10:10] Adam: And on the one hand, you call it education. On the other hand, you could call it activism. On the other hand, you could call it mutual aid work. You could call it a million different things. I think what we're trying to do is in various places lend a hand and be involved in social change on the ground.

[00:10:27] Zev: I mean, I just came back last month. I took a trip for two weeks to Israel, which is the first time I had been back since, since October 7th, although I actually was there on October 7th as well. And I was also struck by something that had not mentioned is there's been massive mobilization of civil society in Israel and a lot of Organizations that some of which were already doing civil society work and some of which weren't necessarily have really organized in a large way to take responsibility for the needs of the moment for the needs of the population.

[00:10:57] Zev: And like Adam mentioned that there [00:11:00] are still tens of thousands of people in Israel who are internally displaced, including entire communities that have basically relocated into hotels. And there are many people who are called up to reserves still. And there are whole sectors of the economy that are.

[00:11:14] Zev: Missing their workers, either because they're in reserves or because there are not as many permits for Palestinians to come and work in sectors that they previously had, which is something that obviously also affects Palestinian economy and also affects Israeli economy. And I saw just a huge amount of, of, of groups mobilizing to answer the needs of the moment as they develop and as they come, both for these communities and for the state as a whole.

[00:11:39] Zev: You know, I can think of several examples and several of the people that we met, but it's something that's, I guess, less spoken about here. The amount of, I think, unity and solidarity that often comes with a state of war can be Focused on the enemy and it can be focused internally. And so any of the groups [00:12:00] that just before October 7th were protesting in the streets, either for, or largely against the government some of these are now the same groups that are turning all the apparatus they had already built to organize and mobilize into.

[00:12:14] Zev: this sort of work into including to the very basic needs of feeding people who were suddenly placed in a different place. In the first, in the first weeks, there also was such a high how do you say? It was more than a hundred percent draft rate. In other words, people were called up to the army and more people showed up than were actually called up.

[00:12:32] Zev: And the army didn't have the logistics in place to feed them. And, restaurants started producing way more food and bringing in volunteers and taking in donations to literally just feed people, including soldiers and not only. And yeah, I just think that that's like an interesting point that I've seen a huge amount of maybe paradoxically disdain for the government, not taking responsibility for the situation and people taking responsibility for the situation themselves.

[00:12:59] Zev: and a [00:13:00] strengthening community in solidarity.

[00:13:09] Hannah: So, I mean, does that suggest that there's one, a single mindedness of perspective in Israel? Like everybody volunteered to join the army. So everybody's super pro this war, right? Like that's, that's what's going on. You guys could see my face. So, you know, I was being sarcastic, but let me be very clear. 

[00:13:26] Yair: I think that the mobilization is more of a way of people to participate in something that they perceive as what has to happen.

[00:13:37] Yair: I mean, first of all, when October 7th hit in the hours and then days and even weeks afterwards, it was very clear that something had to be done. I mean, with. Over a thousand killed, hundreds kidnapped and so on. There was almost no argument saying that, well, maybe we shouldn't [00:14:00] do anything, or maybe there, there shouldn't be even about the military response.

[00:14:04] Yair: I think as, as it prolongs, you get a lot more nuance and a lot more diversity and opinions, even though still, I think that what Zev was talking about The, the mobilization of society is still in a higher rate, by the way, some of it is now protesting against government decisions for bringing back the hostages, because it's, it's now sort of an internal struggle.

[00:14:35] Yair: That's also demanding of like decision makers and politicians in Israel to take a more assertive stance on the subject of the, of the hostages. So it's a bit more complicated. I'm sure there's no, not one opinion for everyone, but it is still a society that you can see that the vast majority wants to do what [00:15:00] they can to make this place somewhere where people could live and imagine their, their futures, which is A pretty general statement as it is, but when you are in a state that people really felt like they might not have a safe place to call their homes in the very tangible way, it was a sight to see.

[00:15:26] Yair: I mean, in Israeli society. And also you can in a lot of places. You could have seen it in a very local way. I mean, in, in our community in Spelman, which is a very small place, it's a place that has the, like, population of about 5, 000. That's like, maybe pushing it a bit, 

[00:15:48] Zev: usually a bit less. Our kibbutz is almost 50 people, so we're almost a percent.

[00:15:54] Hannah: Wow. And, 

[00:15:56] Yair: and we took in, as a town, we took in [00:16:00] about 5, 000 more. Displaced persons and in the first few days of the war, a whole kibbutz moved in to a hotel in our town and other people too. And then you have these questions that you didn't really think you'd be faced with, like, and like the food rations that later came in a very organized manner.

[00:16:27] Yair: Didn't come for the first two days. So we have like a boarding school in in Town that we operate with like kids Kids were sent home because of the war and and we just operated the like the how'd you call it? the dining hall of the of the of the boarding school, and we just operated it for a few hundred displaced persons, a few volunteers and like a small crew and [00:17:00] just started cooking from day to night.

[00:17:02] Yair: Or we had the, the boarding school itself that we housed families from still there. And that's on a very specific local perspective, but I think that people really did want to do what they could with the resources that they have. And something that you could see Sev gave the, the, the example of the restaurants, which I think is good because these are like, it's a for profit or set up a restaurant, but they just left whatever they had and they started cooking for whether it's the communities that had to leave their homes or the soldiers that were drafted.

[00:17:41] Hannah: I think we should be very clear that like this does not suggest solidarity of opinion about the war or about the reaction of the government or non reaction of the government as some would see it. Tell me a little bit about one way or the other the status quo can no longer exist. People are now having to confront a falling apart of [00:18:00] concepts that Well, 

[00:18:05] Yair: I think that in a very tangible way, I think most people didn't imagine a thing that Like what happened on October 7th could even happen.

[00:18:16] Yair: You could frame it in different ways but the fact that a lot of Hamas terrorists crossed the border and mainly in a few different ways across the border and wreaked havoc on few places in Israel and it's something that I think generally people in Israel and also people living in those places like on the border didn't think that it could happen.

[00:18:45] Yair: They've suffered from uh, rocket fire for the past 15 years, and they've went through different war like stages that would have been difficult for a lot of people, but that's [00:19:00] something that people didn't think could happen. That's a state of mind that people in Israel have been going with for At least 40 years, and I think more like 50.

[00:19:12] Yair: I mean, it's a state of mind that we've had since the big wars in Israel, the 73 war, the Yom Kippur war, and 67, and so on. As long as I've lived, I've never had the notion of this sort of thing happening. And when that happens You need to rethink your stances on a lot of things, and I think it has to do with what can keep me safe in a very tangible way, but also what can sustain the state of Israel as a sovereign state, and I think that some people may take it to, we can't, we need to assert our Hit Control and power and the [00:20:00] in this region way that this would never happen and other people may take it into a very firm stance on you need to do something with the conflict that at least takes it into a less volatile stage, if not ends it.

[00:20:19] Yair: But I think that a lot of people feel like the concept that was very popular. With the Israeli government of managing the conflict or managing Hamas is something that people no longer believe is even real as, as a strategy. 

[00:20:39] Hannah: Was it an illusion all along though? I mean, that, that status quo could never have been.

[00:20:45] Hannah: sustained. I mean, I think we have to accept people living as people have been living in Gaza is not sustainable. 

[00:20:52] Zev: Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, I agree with you. I think you're right, but that the status quo is an illusion. And [00:21:00] maybe generally speaking, maybe always, there's no such thing. Actually, the status quo, things don't really stay static, but like you mentioned earlier, also, Yair, that's true, a lot of people have been saying ha'konsepsia nishpera, like the conception is broken now, and that it might have always been an illusion, but it was an illusion that was sold pretty hard to the Israeli public over the last however many decades, certainly by The majority of the ruling parties in the last however many years have said, yeah, there's no, there's no political solution on the horizon.

[00:21:28] Zev: So what we need to do is manage, manage the conflict, manage Hamas, like you said, and manage the entire Palestinian civilian population under Hamas. under our control in the territories. And I think it is an interesting moment to understand that that conception is broken. The question is still very, very up in the air.

[00:21:47] Zev: What will replace it? What new paradigm will take its place in Israel is up for grabs. But I will say that the right wing governments for however many years have staked a lot of their reputation on that. And [00:22:00] Also, the reputation on security. So certainly, both of those paradigms are broken in Israeli society today, and you can see that.

[00:22:07] Zev: It's not clear what will fill the vacuum, but yeah, I think there's like interesting trends happening at the same time in Israel that If there's a paradigm here that you can either support Israel or you can be against Israel and support the Palestinian cause and those two are different things and if you support Israel, you support the war.

[00:22:28] Zev: You said it's obviously different in Israeli society. I don't think there are many people going around Israeli society saying, no, we can live with Hamas and we can reconcile with Hamas. Certainly not today. Well, certainly not a few months ago. On the other hand, there are people who are disagreeing with Is war and is this amount of destruction actually going to achieve any of our goals?

[00:22:48] Zev: Can you actually defeat a terrorist organization? Can you defeat an ideology by military means? And should that be our primary goal? And I think some of the You know, some of the coalition members and [00:23:00] cabinet members are still going around saying our main goals are Israel's long term security. And to do that, we need to eradicate Hamas or at least eliminate their military capabilities.

[00:23:10] Zev: Or our goal is to bring back the hostages, but in order to do that, we need military pressure. That's the only thing that will bring them to the negotiating table. And what you actually see is a lot of people on the ground saying all other goals should be secondary. If there's one thing that's, extremely unified, at least in my very anecdotal experience going around Israel, seeing posters everywhere.

[00:23:31] Zev: It's that the hostages is the main priority for most people, that the hostages, we must bring them home. And people aren't necessarily saying their opinion exactly how, but some people are. Some people are saying, even if it means trading all Palestinian prisoners, all thousands for the hundred some hostages remaining.

[00:23:49] Zev: Now they don't know how many are still alive, but. They're saying, we shouldn't be wasting any more time. We should have a hostage deal now. And some of the people firmly calling for that are [00:24:00] the, what did they say, the Maté, the families forum. 

[00:24:02] Music: Yeah. The 

[00:24:03] Zev: family forum. Yeah. And some of them are the most vocal critics of the government.

[00:24:07] Zev: You know, there was a lot of there was a news article just now, someone who was themselves, who were themselves a hostage in Gaza and were released on day 50 in the first ceasefire and deal on the front lines of a protest and were, and were hosed by the police. 

[00:24:21] Adam: Yeah. I also think that. If I have to best describe what Israeli society is, I would say that it's Most Israelis, and obviously the category of most Israelis is a very unclear and not very useful thing to say in and of itself, but there are sections of the right and the far right that are saying very clearly, we would like to return to Israel.

[00:24:46] Adam: For Gaza, and we want to resettle and build settlements in Gaza. There was a big event that they put on. They put on like a two day event where they spoke about it. They spoke directly about their plans about it. They are, there was like [00:25:00] dancing and singing and celebrating. And the outpouring of anger against it from the vast majority of Israelis was so intense.

[00:25:09] Adam: Now, I'm also of the opinion that if someone held a similar event, there was two days singing all the old peace songs from the 1990s peace, peace negotiations, and we're just saying, we need to immediately pull out now, and we need to just give the Palestinians a state, and it doesn't, it doesn't matter under what conditions, it doesn't matter who will rule there, and it doesn't, there would be maybe a slightly different, but a similar outpouring of anger.

[00:25:38] Adam: I actually think that the vast majority of Israelis. no, they mainly have things that they don't agree with. Like, they mainly have things that they know, the government failed, the conception failed, the, I want to be safe. I know that these two plans, that are [00:26:00] kind of the traditional plans of, The left and the right, if you could say very, very simply, if I'm putting it in various contexts, the vast majority of Israelis, I actually think, are very confused and mainly know what they don't want and mainly are caught in a feeling of confusion and also hurt and anger and pain from what is going on and what continues to go on.

[00:26:26] Adam: And, and I don't think that there's actually that clear stances. I think that one of the things that I've really noticed being here is that people are kind of asking for like, What's the program? What are the stances? What do most people think? And I'm like, the day after in a look. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm also the opinion that in Israel, we need to be asking that question because I'm very scared about it.

[00:26:50] Adam: But I'm like, even simply on an emotional level, I think there's sometimes a hard people don't understand the emotional experience. This is one [00:27:00] of the things that I've really felt. For instance, we talk about all this volunteering that happened in the beginning and everybody got together. I went to go do that because I couldn't sit at home and I sat at home for the first week and it was like, there was too much pain and too much anxiety and too much fear and the participating in something was like, almost like group therapy.

[00:27:25] Adam: It was like a way of getting that out. The pain and the fear of the situation itself, and not just the pain of how many died and how many were kidnapped, but also the pain, the sense of I'm not safe, and I don't know what to do. Don't trust the people in charge. You're looking for a sense of security and the action provided that.

[00:27:49] Adam: And I think today we've kind of gone past that and I, but I still think people carrying them with that, that anxiety, fear, anger, and [00:28:00] it's not clear that that translates so smoothly into just like, Oh, here's my great political plan that I've totally thought of. And I've considered how Biden's reelection is going to affect the peace negotiations and our connection with the Saudis and how they're going to come rebuild Gaza and a million different things.

[00:28:16] Adam: And, you know, I talk with my friends here and I'm like, you guys are talking on a whole other wavelength. And it's not even a question I think of. Would I want most of Israeli society to be there? Yeah, it'd probably be better for us. But like, I also just see what's happening in the day to day and I'm like, we're not there.

[00:28:43] Hannah: What are you finding the people here saying? Coming from home. Coming to the U. S., hearing what the Jewish communities here are saying, talking in this way, looking down the road. 

[00:28:54] Yair: Well, I'll say two things. I think it's not like [00:29:00] two parallel lines that will never meet. I think it's not that far away. And I think that most of the people we've been talking to are people that care about Israel.

[00:29:10] Yair: And it is an important sentiment, not in the sense of, oh, thank you, more in the sense of they are. Concerned, and they are pointing themselves towards Israel, and I think as an organization, but also as personal stances, we don't want to get into the position of anyone who hasn't, like, Been through what we've been through.

[00:29:37] Yair: Can't say anything. Everyone who's not concerned for their personal safety can have an opinion, but I do think Adam said earlier that a lot of what we've been doing, not necessarily on the context of October 7th, but in general is trying to make Breach some gaps between [00:30:00] the mentality and the state of mind of a world Jewry and the mentality of instead of mind of the Israeli Jews is something that becomes a bit more difficult in these days.

[00:30:13] Yair: And I think that we've been, I think what Adam described is sort of what we've been hearing. I mean, like people in higher roles in this, in these organizations would like there to be like a, going forward into like the solution part of the, of the solution phase of this event. And of course we'd like that too, only we, I think have a harder time seeing that as we are very, very, very busy.

[00:30:46] Hannah: It's still in the day to day. 

[00:30:47] Yair: And also, the question of personal safety of me and everyone that I love, everyone that they love. immediately gets you into [00:31:00] a situation where you can't accept a lot of the realities that you might be able to come to terms with if you're a bit further away. And I'm saying that not in the sense of, I don't, I think that we should.

[00:31:14] Yair: Be trying to imagine some form of solution, but it is a, a harder thing to just accept. I mean, even when they talk about putting a third party in charge of daily affairs in Gaza or putting the Pashtun authorities there or, I mean, different solutions, which could all be advancing us to better place if they have the safety and security of Israelis around there in mind.

[00:31:46] Yair: And I think that's something that I could say personally for myself, I think a lot of Israelis are suspicious about. And I think that They're not suspicious of anyone in particular and not [00:32:00] of some policymaker in the U S or in Israel. They're suspicious because they've had something very fundamental broken in, in the way that they perceive like authority figures with regards to that part of their safety.

[00:32:14] Yair: And it will be a thing to breach. I think also what we've been Seeing here and also before we came, that's part of the reason that we started this tour and maybe you can elaborate on that. But I think that we've been hearing a lot, but the organizations here having a very difficult time dealing with.

[00:32:38] Yair: How to approach this issue within the community. I'm not, I'm not talking about what will happen in Israel, how, how to talk to Israelis within the community, how to approach talking about Israel. And we're talking about, like, a generally the scope of liberals and [00:33:00] progressives that are pro Israel in a general sense of the word.

[00:33:04] Yair: And they're having a very hard time approaching their user approaching their, young adults on this matter. And we are thinking that we have things to say about it, but it is a very complicated sphere of like, uh, dialogue. 

[00:33:21] Zev: Yeah. I was, I was just going to say actually that I think the difference between the diaspora and Israel in some ways, at least in the organized communal Jewish world, it's just that things are moving faster for Jews in the diaspora, like moving through those emotions.

[00:33:37] Zev: I also think that on October 7th, Some conception here was deeply rocked. Yeah amongst diaspora Jews for fear for safety I don't know certainly amongst older generations and certainly amongst most organizations and I think we saw a lot of Organizations, even those who are [00:34:00] pretty firmly on the left, even those who are pretty critical of Israel, not all obviously, but come out very much in support.

[00:34:07] Zev: But I also think that they moved through some of the stages of the feelings of grief and a fear and anxiety more quickly. They recognize the situation and the devastation in Gaza, I think more quickly. And I think they also for decades now have been a little more quick. To try and think what could be a constructive solution to the conflict.

[00:34:27] Zev: And I think the idea that we need to push forward to two states and separation from the Palestinians as a way to achieve. Also, ultimately security for Israelis, I think some people are eager to see this as an opportunity of, okay, we can see that the status quo approach to the conflict, the managing the conflict didn't work.

[00:34:45] Zev: So clearly now there should be only one option left because I don't think there are many people who, many reasonable people who can look at the days after October 7th and say, well, one state solution is, is, is the, is the proper reality. These two communities can live together in one [00:35:00] sovereign unit soon in my lifetime.

[00:35:02] Zev: Some people are calling for that, but I think it's often disingenuous. What they actually envision is not a bi national one state. And I think most people here are like, okay, there's never been more of a time where it's more clear that there's only really one solution. And we can argue about how it'll look or how to implement it or how many stages or how long we clearly need to push forward.

[00:35:22] Zev: And I think Israelis are just not necessarily there. And you know, I'm speaking from my perspective, a very You know, I exist in the, in the left wing Israel Jewish world. And those are some of the voices I'm hearing and also trying to elevate because I think they are important. 

[00:35:37] Hannah: I was just going to ask that.

[00:35:38] Hannah: Does it, I'm sure, but I think you guys have already answered it. It's just, it's probably, it's too soon for the people living in Israel side by side with the Palestinians, perhaps. Is there a sense that it will ever be sort of accepted that, you know, Again, in this neoliberal world order in which we live, people without a state don't [00:36:00] have protection, period.

[00:36:01] Hannah: And I think, I mean, as Jews, one of the things I think that we try to hold onto as a huge part of our identity is humanism. And I don't think that you can argue that the way the Palestinians are living now, certainly, and have been living for a long time, is the quote unquote, right, shall we say, way to treat our fellow humans.

[00:36:22] Hannah: And So are people coming to a place where that seems possible or is the grief just too strong still? 

[00:36:30] Yair: I can say the first reactions from after October 7th were going to the direction of we don't want to deal with the state of the Palestinian people. We want to rebuild what was broken and we want. Re establish a sense of security.

[00:36:54] Yair: Yeah. And that's like, I mean, thinking of my parents, which are [00:37:00] long, lifelong lefties in Israel, their initial reaction is, was, No, no, that's not what we're going to talk about now. People, the sentiment that Zev was talking about that we have been hearing here in our meetings of maybe this is an opportunity is something that you would almost never hear in Israel.

[00:37:23] Yair: This is an opportunity. Maybe you'll hear it from a far right Politicians that think it's an opportunity to re settle in Gaza. Leftist politicians wouldn't call it an opportunity. And I think rightfully so. I think it's not, it's not the sort of, it's sort of like people in Corona saying we need to make lemons out of lemonade.

[00:37:46] Yair: And that it's very good that people start working from home. I'm like, yeah. But not that's not what 

[00:37:52] Hannah: we're thinking about right now. Yeah, 

[00:37:53] Yair: I think people are just trying to stay 

[00:37:55] Hannah: alive. Yeah, that's a good for 

[00:37:57] Yair: some people, mass companies. [00:38:00] No, but I mean, I gave that analogy because I think that it's not something that people that humanist people can relate to.

[00:38:11] Yair: Like, Now, I think as the war prolongs, I think people think maybe this needs to happen. And I'm saying from my own perspective, I mean, I think some of the things that are happening right now need to be happening. I'm not a geopolitician, probably there are people who are better suited to say it, but I know that in the current state of things, I wouldn't want my friends People that I know that live in towns and people seem on the border to return and I actually don't see how solely diplomatic solution could just bring that to happen.

[00:38:55] Yair: But also, I think that. It depends what the [00:39:00] goals of like military operations are. And I think that we don't necessarily trust our government enough to say that it's clearly like what needs to happen, which was the opinion in the first. A few weeks, maybe two months of the, of the war with most of the Israeli society.

[00:39:20] Yair: I think the gap between there and I think most people aren't yet in a stage of getting in touch with their sentiment towards the Palestinian people. Yeah. And I'm saying that not, I mean, I'm not. I think we shouldn't be like cynical about that. Do you think that it is a conversation that's worth opening up this stage, and I do think that with passing time in this war where this notion of okay, the last like perception of how things could go.

[00:39:59] Yair: [00:40:00] Where should we take it? But that's like a bit of a longer term question as I see it. And again, I'm not a geopolitician. I mean, a lot of humanists were killed on October, on October 7th. Some of the people living in those people were peace loving and peace activists. And we're living in. Kibbutz sovereign's land the 47th, 48th quarters.

[00:40:28] Yair: I mean, it's, it's, it's a difficult stance to take.

[00:40:38] Adam: In relation to that question, I think there's two places where first of all, Israelis are gonna, we're going to need to be pushed a little bit to get to that place. People don't make like a smooth transition along the way. And I don't mean that in the sense of we need fierce political pressure. I just [00:41:00] say on a, on, on the simplest of levels, people do need to make that step forward.

[00:41:05] Adam: I think a lot of people are, and I think that that will most likely come from two places. One, it will come from above, which will come from. The political leadership choosing to also make a promise that they have a solution and that that and inspiring the confidence that the solution is actually a genuine solution.

[00:41:32] Adam: And I think that takes a big jump for the political leadership. It takes leadership, actual leadership. Yeah. We have a prime minister that has done everything to not be that kind of leader that he can be across his entire life. And I think that the, if that will come, and I hope it does come, it will either come from that level, as I said, the leadership, or it will come [00:42:00] from a grassroots upswell of people saying, we are demanding something different.

[00:42:08] Adam: I'm of the opinion that given the current moment, it's going to need to come from the top. The general people will need to accept it. But you, there will need to be some kind of person that steps forward and says, I actually have a plan and a clear direction. And look the Israeli people in the eye and say, I plan to keep you safe and to maintain a free and dignified life.

[00:42:36] Adam: And here's my promise to you. And it's going to look like this and this. To be honest, in those first weeks, if anything, We felt it, I'll say for myself, more from Biden than I did from my own prime minister. There was a sense that Biden promising the Israeli people that he will take care of [00:43:00] them, and that was incredibly strong, powerful.

[00:43:06] Adam: And I think that if one of the major Israeli leaders, and I know which one I hope does it steps forward, I think they are all slightly scared. And I think in the political climate that Bibi has created, it is very, very difficult. And Bibi will do everything in his power to make sure that no one says that.

[00:43:25] Adam: Because what Bibi has done for the past 20 years is look the Israeli public in the eye and said, I'll keep you safe. And what has been revealed. what was revealed on October 7th was that that was his lie. But any step forward is going to speak that language. And I'm sorry to say I'm a peace loving kid who grew up in a very liberal Jewish community with very, very progressive values.

[00:43:52] Adam: And the, the dialogue that sometimes happens here, and it's fine that it happens here. It happens in the context of Jewish [00:44:00] community here. That will not win over the Israeli people.

[00:44:06] Adam: I think saying we all love people in general and therefore we love the Palestinian people. I need everyone to recognize the humanity of the Palestinian people because they are just simply humans. I don't think that that language is what will speak to the Israeli public today and it also will definitely not speak to the Palestinian public because they're gonna need to be sold a plan as well.

[00:44:30] Adam: They're gonna need someone to look them in the eye and say, they didn't offer you security, they didn't offer you a good life. But the alternative isn't going back to October 6th. The alternative is something different when, if you look at polling, also in the West Bank and also in Gaza Strip, and you look at polling in Israel, and I can cite my sources on this, when the political leadership promised a genuine plan for security, the people believed that it was a genuine plan for security.

[00:44:59] Adam: on both [00:45:00] sides, they, they, they became more open to this idea. And yeah, I don't know, the language of general humanity, it's very important and it has its place, but it's not, it's not going to be the language that moves this forward. 

[00:45:16] Zev: I'll say, I think that also speaks to some of what's motivating the discourse and maybe the, the quicker processing of things that I was touching on in the diaspora here, because I think a lot of the organizations and Jewish communities that have come out very firmly in solidarity with Israel and supporting Israel have also taken, you know, have, have ended up in embattled positions because of it today with the war dragging on for in its fourth month now.

[00:45:42] Zev: And it being unclear whether the military, every specific military action and the broader military campaign as a whole are actually the tools necessary and correct to achieve the goals of the war. And, you know, for them also, whether [00:46:00] The entirety of the conflict and all of the things that happen within it are morally defensible positions.

[00:46:06] Zev: I think many Jewish communities here would say a firm yes to some of the things that exist within that. I would also say no to some of the things that exist within that, that exist within the conflict and Israel's actions. And I think that being in that position speaks to a strain that is of the discourse here, of the larger political discourse here.

[00:46:25] Zev: You can also see Biden himself, as you mentioned. I was thinking how ironic it is that What you're saying is probably true. His popularity has been hurt by his support in Israel here. If he ran in Israel, he would win by a landslide, I think. 

[00:46:36] Hannah: Oh boy. I think a lot of people would love to see that. Go to Israel.

[00:46:41] Hannah: Yeah. That's, that's fascinating. But talk to me more about that because I think at the end of the day, This, this breakdown in the discourse, especially here in the U S this it's, it's within the Jewish communities. 

[00:46:55] Music: Right. 

[00:46:56] Hannah: It's at least what I'm seeing is, and I know that this is [00:47:00] something that we're experiencing, you know, our lived experience of the conflict and the crisis is I know that there are a lot of Jews in the U S who feel vilified by other Jews because they believe in Israel as an entity and as a place.

[00:47:17] Hannah: I thought 

[00:47:17] Zev: you were going the other direction on that one. 

[00:47:19] Hannah: Oh, What do you mean? They're going 

[00:47:20] Zev: to say vilified because they believe in the Palestinian people and in Palestinian self determination. That's interesting. And vilified as self hating Jews or 

[00:47:29] Hannah: the way and maybe this just goes to say more about like whatever my algorithm looks like or the fact that I don't watch cable news.

[00:47:35] Hannah: I don't watch television news at all. I listen to the news or I read the news and I'm on social media and you know, obviously we all have our, our bubbles. But I, I mean, what I see more so, I see many, many, many more people who are much more sympathetic to Palestinians than to Israel or to the, you know, quote, unquote, cause for the war.

[00:47:57] Hannah: I see almost no mention of the [00:48:00] hostages and anything that I see coming across my feet. And NPR, they talk about it, they talk about it, but what everybody in my feed is saying is is that nobody can talk. Nobody's allowed to stick up for the Palestinians. And I always think that's so interesting because I feel like that's the vast majority of what I see.

[00:48:17] Hannah: All right, y'all, that's it for part one. Thank you so much for sticking with us. And don't forget to come back for part two. So much more to learn and so much more perspective to be gained. Join us next time. Bring your open mind and your open heart and your curiosity. And don't forget to follow and telephone.

[00:48:37] Hannah: and leave us a five star review if you can. All right, see you soon. Jew ish is a Saymore production.