Jews helping Jews have babies--but not like that

Jews and money and babies, oh my! Our mission of destigmatization continues with a look at IVF, and some Jewish perspectives on fertility--and infertility--with Sarah Shah, Director of Operations for the Jewish Fertility Foundation.  

Appropriately enough, this episode is late because I just had my own egg retrieval as part of my IVF journey; which was aided in part by a JFF grant, as well as by the Hebrew Free Loan Association, which you'll hear more about in another episode. So, after I took a little time to recover, it seemed right to pay it forward by sharing about these resources, including a bit about both of our journeys (Sarah too!), and the amazing support--not just financial--from the JFF and the HFL, resources individuals and organizations in the Jewish community have worked to provide for one another. Infertility and IVF are hard, but it's even harder alone. Glad you're here. 

GLOSSARY

Mi Shebeirach: a Jewish prayer for healing

Kinahora: a Yiddish expression meaning "not the evil eye" said to ward off bad luck

Niddah: Purity laws restricting when couples can have sex around a woman’s menstrual cycle. 

IUI: Intrauterine insemination, an infertility treatment that places sperm directly into the uterus.

MORE

More on the attacks outside the Capital Jewish Museum and in Boulder, CO. 

In 2024, Alabama’s Supreme Court ruled that embryos created through IVF were to be treated as children under the state’s Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. 

The maternal mortality rate in the U.S. is more than double other high-income countries, and twice that again for Black women.

NCJW: National Council of Jewish Women 

The "Jews have horns" myth originated from a mis-translation of the Hebrew Bible into Latin by St. Jerome. 

Jews in academia: While studies have shown Jews to be over-represented among intellectual elites, including Nobel laureates, we have also long been the target of antisemitic tropes attributing success to conspiracies rather than individual achievement, and a history of antisemitic actions in education, including quotas and conversion requirements.

IVF in Israel

Pres. Trump's

Transcript

THIS IS AN AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT. THE ROBOTS ARE HELPFUL, BUT NOT PERFECT. PLEASE FORGIVE ANY ERRORS!

Hannah: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, you are in for a treat. Today's episode is gonna be even more of an overshare than usual, if that were possible. We are gonna talk about fertility and infertility and IVF and money and mental health and family drama, and you know. All the good stuff. We are talking today to Sarah Shaw of the Jewish Fertility Foundation, and it's extra appropriate because I'm sure you noticed this episode is a little late.

The reason for that is because I just concluded my own fertility journey, well, at least this chapter of it, with an egg retrieval just before the episode was supposed to be out, so slowed me down a little bit. Been recovering, everything's fine, feeling great things are gonna get back to normal, normal soon.

So just wanted to give you a heads up on that. But most importantly, wanted to introduce you to the Jewish Fertility Foundation and at least one of their [00:01:00] partners, the Hebrew Free Loan Association, who you will hear more about in an upcoming episode. And you know, if you need a little help or if you might wanna become a donor, all the links are in the show notes.

So check 'em out, help 'em out, and get the word out.

Sarah: Uh, I grew up in Boston, a suburb of Boston, but I lived in DC after going to University of Maryland for many, many years. And so when I started working for Jewish Fertility Foundation, I was the greater DC manager and then kind of moved up in the organization and I've since moved to Princeton, New Jersey.

So I'm testing out being a Jersey girl now, I do have my own IVF journey, which is kind of what brought me to JFF in the first place. I had been a teacher for 16 years and for a variety of reasons was looking for a change and I had always wanted to work in that space and give back in some way. But of course, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a nurse, and had [00:02:00] no interest in necessarily doing that.

So it was really just kind of fate. I found out about Jewish Fertility Foundation, started following them on social media and then they. Shared that they were opening up in DC and needed a manager. So here I am and yeah, I have my one son born via IVF, my husband, and that's the really short version of me.

I love it. I love it. Oh, and wait, how we got connected? You are a JFF client of ours. 

Hannah: And this is the thing that's so funny about it is, you know, you do this thing, it's kind of official. You send your emails, you gather personal statements, you have to like fill out an application and then you send it all off.

And like a human being replies, um, a just a person and it was you. 

Sarah: Yes, it's actually me respond. It's a person respond and it's in, it's, I am definitely like, you know, we're a not small nonprofit. I wear a lot of hats, but one of the things I prioritize is sort of two things. One is paying the fertility clinic.

So when someone has a grant, we pay the clinic directly. I am always answering the phone, even if it's a number, I [00:03:00] don't know, in case it's a fertility clinic. And then the second thing is, and they're related, but is the clients themselves who are reaching out for help. Um, especially in the beginning, because I know it can take a lot to sort of take that leap of saying like.

Hey, I might need something. So yeah, I do try to, and having been through it myself, right, like I just get it and time is of the essence. So I really try to respond quickly and nicely. 

Hannah: Yeah, you and you did great. And the other thing is that what's so interesting to me too is the supportiveness. Like it's such a different approach.

I went to grad school. Okay. I have applied for a lot of grants and you know, I will say that it is rare I will give credit where credit is due. For example, with the State Department grants with Fulbright or CLS. Mm-hmm. Human beings, you call, someone picks up the phone and they answer your questions. It's lovely.

But 

Sarah: otherwise, 

Hannah: I've never really seen that. 

Sarah: Oh, well I'm glad I, I feel like I have to share this right now. 'cause it feels appropriate. Yes. I think a lot of these grant giving organizations, it's, well, we are giving you money so they have [00:04:00] this sort of ship on their shoulder or something. But with us, we actually look at it, especially our IUI grants as like, because they're just a thousand dollars and they're like a hug from the Jewish community.

That's how we, that's how we phrase it. That comes from Alana Frank, our CEO and founder. And that's really how we want you to feel, right? That we're just giving you this hug. So, well, I vouch 

Hannah: for that. 

Sarah: That 

Hannah: is a hundred percent how it feels. Oh, I'm glad. And, and we'll dive into my journey, but before we go too much farther, when you hear Jish.

What does it mean to you and how does being Jewish show up in your 

Sarah: life? That's like a, that's a big question. Um, I think it means a mix of kind of a religion and a culture, and that's really, when I hear it, that's the first two things that pop into my mind. There's the Jewish part of me that's like prayers and, you know, my nanas recovering from, um, hip surgery and thinking about immediately singing the Misha Bera, right?

Like going back to that, sitting in synagogue and hearing that. And then there's the Jewish that's like. I love a bagel with a schmear and I went to [00:05:00] Jewish summer camp and you know, just kind of that the like Yiddish words being a part of this culture that this is us and we're funny and we're this and that.

And yes, maybe a little neurotic. And I have IBD, not I-B-S-I-B-D, I have Crohn's. Oh no. All the things. So yeah, it's sort of like these dual things and sometimes they're all. Like combine is one, but sometimes they kind of feel separate. Um, and that's okay to me. So part two of that 

Hannah: is how does being Jewish for you show up in your day-to-day life?

And then what is one specific Jewish tradition or memory or thing that you sort of have adopted into your family or your daily living that you like, think of as being very Jewish, but is maybe just a your family thing? Ooh. 

Sarah: Okay. That's an interesting one. Well, since I work here now, I think it's come a lot to the forefront and it can be anything from just learning even new Jewish and Hebrew [00:06:00] phrases and words to.

Thinking about Tikkun alum, which I know sounds cheesy, but it really is true. It's something that I learned growing up and it's always been a part of me, but I feel like it's just having that name to it and sort of the, like, this is a value that is not just my value, but my ancestors' value, my fa, my current family's value.

I'm passing this along to my son, and it can show up in such a little ways like, okay, today. I usually use a library for books for my son, especially for picture books. Right? Because you read them once and, and you know, some of them you reread. But anyway, we had just gone to a bookstore, a local bookstore this weekend, and he bought a book and he read it, and it was one of those that I just didn't think he was gonna reread.

So it was lying on our couch this morning as we were waiting for the bus, and I said. Do you wanna give this to your teacher as like a for her classroom library? And he was like, yes. And then I had him write and he wrote inside from Dylan to Miss Albany's class. And just like a tiny little thing. I said, this is just, it's a nice thing to do.

Why not, you know, why not have this small little act of kindness to pass it along so that some other kids [00:07:00] can read it? And I'm hoping that those are things that like he'll take on and wanna continue doing, like those small, random acts of kindness. So to me that's something that I try to do every day that does feel Jewish.

And besides the fact that also, you know, just helping make more Jewish babies every day. So to answer your other question about, you know, what is some, a tradition or something that I think of as Jewish that maybe is just, oh man, um, I. I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. I, you know, like superstitions and things like that, and, which I don't, oh my gosh.

Feel like I have that many. But I did not have a baby shower, and actually my mom wanted me to have one. She's still a little sad, I think. Wait, is that a Jewish thing that I don't know about that we're not supposed to have baby showers? Um, it is a, it's not a religious situation. It's more of a cultural, traditional thing that, because Jews were so superstitious.

That it was like, because you're not supposed to name the baby until Exactly. It's like that kinna, khara, I think is the word, like p and so, yeah, we don't celebrate the baby, like people don't even set up cribs and [00:08:00] things, which I did. I set, we set up a crib, but I just didn't wanna have a baby chair. And I think it was also tied into the IVF.

For me it was, it was like, oh yeah, it was, maybe that was my excuse was like, yeah, I'm Jewish, so I'm not gonna have a baby shower. But also, like, it's nerve wracking, it's anxiety producing to get pregnant Once you, when you do get, finally get pregnant, if you do. From these fertility treatments because. Is it gonna stick?

Totally. Is it too gonna be true? There's a lot of fear. Yeah. A very Jewish 

Hannah: thing. Getting a lot of fear in there. 

Sarah: Yeah. That's their neuro neurosis. Yeah, and to 

Hannah: be fair, 

Sarah: we've had a lot 

Hannah: of really bad experiences as a culture and of people. 

Sarah: Right. We have trauma and then like the last piece of that is then also knowing how it felt for me to go to baby showers when I was trying to conceive and it wasn't working.

That's not the most fun thing. They're not really fun anyway. I personally just don't love them, but I was like, I don't wanna put some of my friends through a baby shower for me. Then, and I knew some of them were also going through their own fertility journeys, so I thought, I just don't wanna do this. It was sort of all of it combined.

Is it a Jewish thing? Is it just something that my [00:09:00] family, like my mom had told me at some point, even though she then wanted me to have one, oh, Jewish people don't have baby showers. You know, like, is that really a thing? I don't know. That's 

Hannah: so wild. And honestly, like I'm learning a lot because the people have, we think that being Jewish, all of us, just like we do about all the things in our life, we think that the way we do things is the normal way.

And we sort of assume that other people are doing similar things and like kind of, and sometimes we are. And I think it's like as soon as I meet somebody and we both, you know, immediately realize the other one is Jewish, we're like, okay, there's a thing. It's like a, there's an understanding there. There's a, there's like a flexibility I, that you would give somebody, I mean, I guess the best way to explain it to maybe Americans who like.

Don't realize they swim in that water where you're the same, you're mostly the same as most of the people you meet. Yeah. But like when you're the teeny tiny minority and then you identify one another and you are the little fish in that sea, that is the only color of that fish. I think the only way to like help other [00:10:00] Americans understand that is if you travel abroad.

And you meet another American, yeah, like an 

Sarah: expat situation or something. Yeah. 

Hannah: Yes. Or, or even more, perhaps more closely is like if you travel abroad as an American. Then you meet someone who speaks good English and lived in the US for a really long time because it's like we know that we're not, we don't have the exact lived experiences.

We know that we don't have the same upbringing. We make those assumptions about ourselves, I think as well as automatically as we identify with one another, because we are all so aware of how unbelievably, ridiculously diverse and global and spread out diasporic Jews are. Yeah. And so it's. Yeah, you're a Jew from Brazil.

We have nothing in common, but we also have everything in common, and so let's proceed from here and like it's just a thing. 

Sarah: That's so true. Yeah, exactly. It's like a shared history and knowledge and Yeah, identity, right? Yeah. I guess it's the 

Hannah: easiest way to describe it, and I think it's really interesting that you chose the baby shower as the example, because obviously you have to spend a lot of your time [00:11:00] thinking about babies and Jews.

Okay. Fair. But I think it's really interesting because maybe it's, what is it about what you do? Maybe it's about like how you got here through your own IVF journey. Like how do you feel particularly about more Jewish babies at this moment? 

Sarah: To me, I feel like it's, um, it's important. I don't know. I think, and, and it's not just more Jewish babies, it's more babies in general.

I get it. But also like I actually have a unique perspective because I have one, and that's by choice. So I'm not someone who's out there saying, because there's a lot of pressure. Right. There's like this opposite side of things where there's can be, especially in more observant communities. I've never experienced that myself, per se, but like I know about this pressure to have many children.

Yeah. 

Hannah: It's sort of almost universal across conservative religious communities, period. Right, 

Sarah: exactly. If you could be talking about another kind of religion, but that, that conservative version of it with it. Exactly. And there it is. But no, I just, I feel like our community, it's important to have community and everyone's sort of [00:12:00] reaching out there and searching for that community and wanting to pass along.

This, these traditions, these rituals, these superstitions, these, whatever it is, I think is there is like this strong desire to do that. And I think even more maybe now because we see the antisemitism and the discrimination and the targeting that is happening. Um, it's also just like trying to find joy and something uplifting in some of these moments is like really helpful for me.

Right. When you see something like what happened? In Boulder, um, here in DC with the, with capital Jewish Museum, you know that it's really hard and it's really, it weighs heavily. And so to have time during my workday where I'm like finding out that a baby was born or that actually we just found out there are currently 20 women in DC who are JFF clients who are pregnant.

At the same time. How 

Hannah: exciting. Oh my God. We should have a party. We should just have like A-J-F-F-D-C [00:13:00] party. I know. And just have, it's a non 

Sarah: baby shower, but not a baby shower. Perfect. I know. And they all had tough journeys to get to that point. Right. But it's just, wow, that is, I keep saying like it's a kindergarten class, you know?

Oh, it is. And just thinking. And then that really is also special to me because, you know, I, where I grew up, there were Jewish people, but like I didn't have a ton of Jewish people in my town at the time, or at least in the school that I was in. And my son now even mentioned the other day that he was the only Jewish kid in his class.

So like thinking about a kindergarten of 20 Jewish kid. Jewish babies. Yeah. And, and, and then maybe, and there's a lot of interfaith. We give a lot of grants out to interfaith couples. Mm-hmm. So they may be Jewish and something else. And that's great. Well, that's us. I mean that's, that's, that's, uh, my fun for sure.

And anyway, so yeah. 

Hannah: That's lovely. So babies are great, especially in this very dark time, you know, but, and of course, so how very Jewish to make like a dark joke about it, but it is true that Jews generally, they value education. Yes. So we are overrepresented in a lot of academic fields and that kind of thing [00:14:00] for reasons that seem obvious to me, but maybe are less obvious to others, are pretty well versed in like various types of political science and like we understand the dangers of, uh, race-based nationalism.

Um, the, the thing that's obvious is the Holocaust guys, in case you're not tracking. Correct. It's like the World War ii Yeah. Of it all. And like it's, there are specific reasons that Jews were chosen. There are specific stereotypes about Jews that we continue to see. It's like mind boggling that these things persist.

The tropes. Yeah. It's exhausting. And also at the same time I'm like, I understand. If you don't feel like you can ask, so here allow me, let's just create a space where we can just talk about it. Right. It's, and I'm literally here to demystify it. 'cause like it is costing people's lives. Yeah. And once again, in our lifetime, our parents are the children of Holocaust survivors.

Many of them, like my mom's family fled Hungary before. Yeah. World War II because they saw the writing on the wall. You know, like, we know what this is. This has been happening to us for 5,000 years. Round 'em up, chase 'em out, [00:15:00] round 'em up, kill 'em off, round 'em up. Like whatever it is. Yeah. We know what this is.

And so at this moment there are people who are specifically focused on taking Jewish lives. Yeah. Specifically Jewish lives. And I think it is a really beautiful, bright spot. It's like this remains a miracle. Like it remains a beautiful thing, a difficult thing, a thing that, especially in the IVF space, I can speak to this of course, personally, it takes a lot of choice, deliberation, and work.

You can't casually decide to go on an IVF journey for god's sakes. Like it's just, it costs so much in terms of resources in so many ways, emotionally, financially. Thank God for you guys, you know? Yeah. Time. Just even the time, time, time. Yeah. Oh my God. And I made my partner come with me. 'cause he's, he travels a lot for work and so.

He was here for this most recent round, and I was like, oh no, you're coming with me to all the doctor's appointments. And don't get me wrong, he had zero [00:16:00] resistance. He wasn't like, oh, why? Like, there's none of that. Or he would not be my partner. No, he and he did, and he just, it was like, yes, every morning being at the doctor by seven 30 undergoing this unbelievably invasive 45 minutes or whatever, and then going straight to work.

Yep. Every other day. And then every day for like. A month. It's exhausting and like it really is. It's very intense. So there's like another parallel here in my personal story. At the moment, my parents are on the older side and my father, we have a history of mental health issues. Depression. I struggle with depression and A DHD and all the generalized anxiety disorders, you know, it's a very Jewish, yeah.

So, and you know, it's been really hard for months now. And I said to my brother at one point, Hey, I'll try and come out if I can. I will only have a very small, I'll have like a 10 day right a window. Where I can come and it has to be those 10 days and I cannot extend it. I have to be back because I'm doing IVF.

And he was like, I'm so happy to be thinking [00:17:00] about growing the family in a time like this. And I was like, oh, that's, that's really sweet. Yeah. It's like the microcosm of the bigger 

Sarah: thing, I think. Yes, that's exactly it. Right? And everyone wants something to look forward to and something to be happy about both.

Like you say, it's sort of personally and intimately, but also just in the broader world. Yeah. Yeah. This is something we talk about a lot at J Fff. Tell people if you can Yes. You know, talk to people about it. It really, it's helpful to be upfront if you can. 

Hannah: Yeah, because I mean, I'm a big believer in that too.

I think that that value of openness is so important of, like, I, I'm just a big believer in destigmatizing and I think that the only way that we. Remove those veils of like weirdness and darkness and secrecy. Like you can't tell stories about us, like drinking babies', blood. If you just come to services and see, right.

Just come to services, it's fine. Actually, we love babies. Not like that. 

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, it's funny you say that. I, we just received an application of 500th application last night. Oh, [00:18:00] congratulations. And it was from a rabbi, and she wrote in her personal statement that she's using her full name because she thinks there should be more people.

Speaking up in the clergy about this issue, owning it and all that. So this is a thing, the more people you tell, the more people you realize are also going through it or know someone who did and it normalizes it. Yes. I feel the same way about my Crohn's. Like I have Crohn's disease. Yeah. And I will tell anyone, like I'd be waiting in line for Starbucks and it comes up and I just share because Yep.

Make these connections that you never thought you would. And then people know, oh, I, she's someone I could talk to. Mm-hmm. Or I could send my friend to. And that's how I was with IVF. Mm-hmm. Um, as well. And so, and that's kind what our fertility body program is and more, a little more formally. 

Hannah: I love Yeah, I love that.

And I feel the same way, like about my A DH adhd. I'm just like, oh yeah, no, it's hard. It makes everything really, really hard. And also just because I think even if you don't wanna send someone to me or whatever, I think sometimes just the power of the example of someone who's like, yep, I live with this every single day.

Sarah: Yeah.[00:19:00]

Hannah: We obviously have all these reasons to want Jewish babies and babies in general. Tell me about the JFF itself and how did it come to be? 

Sarah: Yeah, so Iana Frank, who's the CEO and founder, um, she had lived in Israel and had two babies via IVF there and there. IVF is covered. And it's not that it's easy 'cause it's still IVF, but at least it's, at least that financial burden is gone for I think your first two or three kids.

She came back from Israel and she wanted a third. Was going through it here and was just flabbergasted at the price, you know, sticker shock. And the story goes that she was sitting at the pool at the JCC in Atlanta and she started for the first time, kind of talking about this with two other women. They were talking about how much their babies cost, 

Hannah: quote unquote.

That's how she says that for now it's gonna get worse. No, just kidding. Right? 

Sarah: And it, well, and it occurred to her like, this is a real problem and I, I don't like it and I wanna do something about it. And so that's kind of where JFF [00:20:00] was born. And so she started the nonprofit in Atlanta and, and that was in 2015.

It was only Atlanta. It was started, and it started out really just being about the money. It really was about let's give out grants so that people can afford their treatment, which is still what we do. But pretty quickly, she and the other people that were involved realized that, you know what, some people actually, they're lucky.

Maybe their insurance covers everything. Or maybe, you know, they just, they have the means, and this isn't gonna be a huge problem for them, but they're really struggling emotionally. And so we need to provide something for them as well. And so that's when we started. There was support groups. They were in person.

Then COVID happened, they were virtual. Now we have a mix, uh, because we find some people just, it's easier to be virtual. Mm-hmm. Some people want the in person. We do events, we do things like a night off of infertility where, you know, maybe it's an Mahjong game or going block or whatever it is. Then we also do education.

So you talk about one of the Jewish values being education. One of the things that happens a lot when [00:21:00] people are going on a family building journey is they suddenly realize how much they don't know about, oh my God, how their own body works, how reproduction works. No, I don't know. I felt like, I was 

Hannah: like, how 

Sarah: humili?

Hannah: I was like Googling loo deal face. 

Sarah: Right? It's 

Hannah: like 

Sarah: all over TikTok and I'm like, I don't know what they're talking about. I'm embarrassed because, well, you know, your sex ed spends all the, its time trying to teach you that it's so easy to get pregnant. You gotta prevent it. Oh my, my God. I'm like, so true.

Right? So that's another thing I think we need to address, but I joked that like when I was going through it, I felt like I was getting a degree in biology. And so we also do education because it's empowering for people going through it to really understand all that goes into it. What are, what are things that you might need to know?

Can you ask to change your doctor? Yes, you can within the clinic, things like that. Mm. What are the pathways to parenthood besides IVF? Um, we have a whole program called Pathways to Parenthood that. You know, it was really popular, so and so. It started expanding because more and more people were like, we need this in our community.

And so that's really how JFF started growing, was that there was a [00:22:00] real need and demand, and so we wanted to meet that demand. As of now, we're in 10 locations and continuing to look at expanding in different ways to help. As many people as we can mm-hmm. Afford their treatment and get through the emotional side of it as well.

So that's like the very, the really short version. And we, you know, in terms of education, I have to share too. We also do education of the fertility clinics. So we go into the clinics that we partner with and we do a, a training on basically like this special needs of observant Jewish patients. Oh my gosh.

And all the staff at the clinic attends and they're fascinated and it's like really good sensitivity training for them. Because they learn about concepts that I didn't honestly to be, I didn't know about even until I worked for Jewish Fertility Foundation like Nita. Um, about what is, is that, I don't know what that is.

Oh gosh. You were putting me on the spot. But essentially it's like avoiding sexual intercourse at certain points during your cycle. Interesting. And it can kind of lead. Some people to it almost make it even harder for them to conceive because they're not necessarily doing [00:23:00] what they need to do at the times that they might need to do it.

Yeah. Or something. Ah, sure. Yeah. Interesting. So, you know, just explaining that, explaining why if someone's retrieval is scheduled on Shabbat, why they might need to get there by walking and things like that. This is, it's really, and so it's eye-opening for the fertility clinics to learn about this. And I think I, I feel like it's good because especially at this time, you know more about just that education about.

Jewish people. No, we don't have horns. We don't like all those things. Thank you. Hello. Hi. What? And then on the flip side, we do trainings with clergy. So like a board of rabbis, for example, will have a luncheon and someone from JFF will come and share about what we do. Number one, just so that they can share what their congregants, but also, hey guys, like when you're giving your sermons or when you're sharing this, know that there are people sitting in your congregation that are having trouble conceiving, and here's some things you might wanna think about.

That's another thing that we do as well to help everybody that's going through this and, and help the community best support them. 

Hannah: I just love that it's so, and it's so critical. I mean, it [00:24:00] really is like, uh, when I first started freezing my eggs like two or three, I guess three years ago at this point, and so many women were like, will you talk to me about it?

Can you tell me? 'cause I was thinking about it, but I don't really know. And it's like, it seems so funny once you've broken through that membrane, no pun intended. Ha ha. That was a good one. Weird, weird pregnancy joke. Okay. It's like, to me, I'm like, no, we all talk about it. I know a million people who are doing it, but I was once on the other side of that.

Right. And so part of it is I just wanna like kick open this door. Especially now because women, especially in this country, have to talk very frankly, especially with their partners or their employers, sadly, which is so invasive for some. We have to talk very frankly about what we want our family path to be and make plans and decisions that facilitate that for some people.

To include where you choose to live. 

Sarah: Yes. We're working on a webpage. Hopefully we'll be up soon about re it's all resources about. Cryo-preservation, cryo transportation. Um, and it, it came about, we're trying to be much more proactive [00:25:00] because we had to be reactive when what happened in Birmingham happened.

Yeah. But you know, that, that Supreme Court ruling affected, we had clients in Birmingham who were going through treatment whose. Treatment was canceled. Oh my God. Because their IVF clinic shut down because of the Supreme Court ruling, 

Hannah: and I'm such a jerk because my first thought was, of course, like, oh my God, all that money.

Right? Like the baby. Of course. Yes. But like you can't just try again. Yeah. It's not like that. There is no like, oh shoot. Okay, well, we'll just try again once this gets figured out. That is not how it works. It is. I. So time sensitive. And once you've already sunk $15,000 into it, like that's it, that was your one shot.

Right? And not to mention 

Sarah: the fact that the hormones, they're all timed. So you're pumped up with hormones and all of a sudden to hear like, oh, sorry, we can't do your transfer or your retrieval. Right? And so we ended up, we, we were able to, thanks to a partnership with NCJW and they're actually, they were able to help us give emergency grants to women, um, in Birmingham so that they could travel to Atlanta to continue their treatment at one of our partner clinics.

There and they [00:26:00] both, luckily they both got pregnant and both have since had the babies, so Oh my goodness. For them it worked out. But yeah, to consider where you live. Exactly. There are so many states now that have the fetal personhood laws on the books, and those are the states where abortion obviously at risk, if not banned, but also some people don't think about this, but also IVF is then at risk.

Hannah: Yeah. They just don't understand that I, I guess it's hard to say pregnancy is a risky enterprise. It is. It always has been. Yes. And sadly bizarrely, it is riskier for American women than most women in developed countries in the world. And most, I think if you take a purely medical view of it, you have to understand that pregnancy and pregnancy termination are really interlinked.

Sarah: Yes, 

Hannah: they are. It's so deeply not political. It's like a very confusing thing to even couch in those terms because it's just a scientific reality that, right, we have to choose. We're choosing between the safety of two individuals, at least my understanding, at least the way that I was raised. That the way that [00:27:00] Judaism looks at this is very unequivocal, that you have to save the life of the mother, life of the mother.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's like, do we want to and cherish and love babies and want them to survive and be happy and have the best opportunities? Yes. But if it's obvious that. Both cannot survive that. You have to choose the life of the mother. At least that's how Judaism thinks of it. 

Sarah: Yes, that's And that's my understanding as well, and that's, I've had conversations with Sheila Katz over at NCJW and she, I think, is the expert, my expert at least on this, and she has definitely.

Reiterated that for me and for all of us. Yeah. I think that, yeah, and you should definitely talk with this person, the rabbi that I was mentioning. But Alana, who I, I joke is like my little rabbi because she's observant. Um, and she became observant later in life. But she has talked about how Judaism views embryos as more, it's more like.

An unborn child is more like, it's really just water until that birth first breath is taken. Exactly. Of course. So also, so these, that Supreme [00:28:00] Court decision, just for an example, are all these fetal hood laws are really also going against. Jewish. Yeah, the Jewish religion and the Jewish view on, on it. I mean, it feels First Amendment suspicious to me, but I guess that's, you know, again, 

Hannah: when you're not a member of the like dominant class, it's easy to be like, I have some notes or questions at least.

Yeah, that's What about that religious freedom thing? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Hannah: I do think, you know, we don't need to go too far down this route, but if, if you can have a religious exemption for. Immunizations. Where's my religious exemption for abortion? Yeah. Because my religions proscribes it. It says I am allowed to survive.

Sarah: Yeah, exactly. I need to prioritize my life.

Hannah: So how does it all work? Where does the JFF get their support? I found you guys through a brochure in the office of my doctor, which is lovely. And then through you I found the Hebrew free loan because it was like, congratulations, we're giving you a grant. Also call these guys, they have more money. [00:29:00] Yes. I was like, I'll, I'll call anyone with all the money.

Sarah: We work very closely in Hebrew Free Loan Association, and most of our locations, some of 'em are, there isn't one. But yes, we work and in fact, in Atlanta, I don't know, we don't do this in dc I'm not sure why, but in Atlanta we even. With permission from the applicant or the grantee, we can share their application from us so that they don't have to re get all the documents together.

Love that. Um, so yeah, for anyone listening, if you're in Atlanta especially, but yeah, and it's a interest free loan, which is hugely helpful. And I think they go up to $25,000 for family bills. It changes your life. It will change your life. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So where do we get our funding? It's a mix, but a lot of it is from Jewish foundations.

Various grants that we rely on. And then individual donors. We have our crowdfunding campaign every year, and this year we had, I think, the most donors that we had ever had, and I'm blanking on the exact number of individual donors, but you know, it was like I. I wanna say a couple hundred. I think my, our director development's gonna maybe correct me on that.

I will, I'll get back to you. But it was a lot of [00:30:00] individual donors giving some small amounts, some larger amounts, but kind of all coming together to say we support this cause and this is important. And so we raised, I think it was like close to $300,000 in our campaign. And so that's how we have the money that we then can turn around and give out to the people that apply for the grants from us.

Hannah: Lovely. Well, and it's so interesting because to me something like this feels like the Hebrew Free Loan Association. As soon as I found out about it, I was like. This is a very Jewish thing. Mm-hmm. This is a very mm-hmm. And also it's like such a, like a, oh you, oh, I get it. Jews came to a new place and we're like, oh, other Jews are coming.

We're gonna have to get together and have a plan to help them. Yes. 'cause it's hard. And so that feels totally like, oh, yep, I get it. That's how that happened. But it's so fascinating that the JFF is so new. I did not realize that until we started talking from this episode. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. 2015, but really new in most of the locations that we're in.

So DC was 2023, technically January, 2023 is when it started. [00:31:00] And Yeah, it does. It feels very new and it feels like there are so many people who say, ah, I can't. I'm so happy that you exist, that there's a Jewish organization that's doing this and that's helping in this space. But, and yeah, we, in our dreams, we wanna be nationwide, we wanna be everywhere, helping as many people as possible.

I should also mention, in addition to Jewish foundations, it's really Jewish federations as well. And, and some of the locations we're in are also supporting us both financially, but also just helping us get established. So in South Florida, for example, they've been really helpful in Nevada, Jewish, Nevada.

Shout out to them like they're sharing all about us, getting the word out, sharing about our support groups. So. It's been nice to be embraced by the Jewish federations and the Jewish communities where we are coming to health. 

Hannah: That's wonderful. Yeah. You've said that the JFF does not give exclusively, quote unquote two Jewish couples per se.

Like obviously one applicant needs to be Jewish, and as I recall from my application, it needs, the plan is to raise the baby Jewish Yes. On this, keep things going, you know, let's keep it going. What is it? [00:32:00] What makes a baby Jewish? What, to your mind 

Sarah: at least? Yeah, that's a great question. Well, I, it's funny because the question, what makes a baby Jewish is actually the title of one of our podcast episode.

Yay. And it's really interesting. It's about surrogacy and about one of our amazing ambassadors and supporters in DC who happens to be a lawyer and who also went the surrogacy route for her family building. She was frustrated basically that in the conservative JU Judaism movement. A baby was not considered Jewish if born via a non-Jewish surrogate until the baby was basically converted, did the mikvah and she was kind of like, uh, no, I I thought it was a pretty clear cut matrilineal situation here.

Yeah, right. But I guess there was some confusion. So they had a, I don't know if the word is trial, um, but they had like a, a hearing and she won, for lack of a better word. And so they changed. Doctrine. And so now if you are a Jewish mom and you have a baby via surrogate, it doesn't matter the religion of the surrogate, [00:33:00] your baby is Jewish right outta the gate.

That is so cool. So, okay. Anyway, what makes a baby Jewish? In, in, in our eyes, we, what we say is we go by the reform definition of what makes someone Jewish baby or mm-hmm. And we really, you know, we're not coming in to check up on you, you know, anything like that. Right. I've, and sending random social workers to my house to make sure I'm raising my baby Jewish.

Oh no, of course not. Because again, what does that even mean? You could come though if 

Hannah: you just wanna Exactly. Come on over, come for Chavez. We'll do it. 

Sarah: So, right. So we, what we do is we ask our applicants to write a personal statement. And so that's where you can kind of share. What it means to you and what your own Jewish experience has been, and if your partner's not Jewish, what their experience has been.

I, we've got some great stories about how, oh, my, my partner is likes bagels more than me, and I like all these funny little things that people will share. And then we do ask for a letter of reference from someone in the community. And that's, a lot of times people ask a rabbi, but it can be someone else.

We, we do give grants to people who already have one child, so we do cover and help people who are going through [00:34:00] secondary infertility, which is a thing. So sometimes we'll get a reference letter from someone's like their first child's preschool director or whatever, which is really sweet. And so oftentimes those reference letters will sort of say what these people, what Judaism means to these people that, that are applying or whatever it is.

So it's, they're really beautiful to read, to be honest. And we don't, I will say that there's another organization that's sort similar to us and on their website it says something like. Jewish needs to be the only religion in the home for us to be able to give a grant. So they, I guess they don't give grants to interfaith couples, and so that's not where we're coming from.

It's really we're just. We, we just wanna spread the love. We just wanna help people have babies, you know? So it's kind of like, and you have to 

Hannah: draw the line somewhere. I get 

Sarah: it. 

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I understand that for them too, that they're like, look, our priority is we want to protect this version of ju you can do whatever you want.

Sarah: It's your money. Do whatever you want. Exactly. And what we do find is, I think people do feel, and we actually had a Ross off study. People do feel more connected to the Jewish community once they get involved with us and [00:35:00] receive a grant from us, which makes sense, right? It's kind of logical, like, oh, you guys supported us.

That's cool. Yay Jews. Right? Yay Jews. Well, that's, we do sort of see that happening and we actually, we do, like we visit when someone is lucky enough to have a baby, we do do visit with a new baby bag and there's a PJ Library book in there. Yeah. And so we kind of try to pass that baton on to help them in their journey of raising the baby in the Jewish community.

So, 

Hannah: yeah. Well, and it's so, so fabulous too, because like you said, I mean, it really. For me as I think it's probably the case for a lot of people, um, 'cause life is so uncomplicated. I started my fertility journey. Well, this is not the start of it. This is my second round of it. The first time I, I did it through egg freezing because I had insurance that covered it.

Lucky most insurance does not. I know you're so lucky. Very, very, very, very lucky. And I still needed help and so I really had to be. It really puts you in a situation as a woman, and of course it. Puts pressure on relationships and mm-hmm. You know, because I'm like, I'm over 40. I don't, I can't sit around and [00:36:00] ask myself if I wanna do this anymore.

Right. I either do it or I'm not doing it. Right. So don't even have the opportunity, even have the later choice. Yeah, exactly. And so for me, it's like, I'm not saying I want to have a baby tomorrow, or even this year, or even maybe even next. I just want to be able to, if I want to. Yeah. And so it's, it's so hard because now I'm obligating my partner or I'm obligating, you know, whatever.

If you, I have friends who are single moms by choice and you know, they, the burden of making those decisions on your own, I mean, in some ways I feel like it's easier because I'm like, well, whatever his problems are, are our problems and it's easier. We've already agreed to take that on with one another.

Right. By being in this relationship. And you know, as long as, and they do all the genetic testing, as long as we're fine genetically, like the other things we'll face together. Yep. Okay. But doing it by yourself and choosing a donor and it's like the pressure. And so, um, if you're not in a dark point in your life when you are starting this journey, it can put you in a [00:37:00] very precarious feeling position.

Yeah. For myself, I was. For other reasons related to work, related to sense of purpose, related to am I a person living in alignment with my values and all asking myself all these questions in all these other ways too. Going through all this and then thinking real world problems, right? Of like, okay, so if I start this journey and then I lose my job, what am I gonna do?

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Hannah: If I start, am I gonna, am I comfortable like asking my partner to get into debt with me for this? Like, but how do we. See it through and, and it's like nothing is for certain, nothing is easy. We're talking in June and I really started this in January, so, and I've only done two rounds like that also, right there tells you like the time consum and I've gone, I straight, I went straight from round one to round two, right?

And it's been six months. This shit will eat your life up. So like in so many ways, and it was a dark moment for me. I was embarking on this journey. 'cause I was basically looking at it like, I don't really have a choice. I mean, I do have a choice. I could have no kids so. This was [00:38:00] happening. And I cannot say enough things about my partner for just being like, you know, he wasn't like, oh, whatever you wanna do.

No, it wasn't, but kind of, which to be honest is kind of what you need. Yeah, no, that's good. Was like, Hey, let me know where to be and when. You know, and I'm like, Hey, you know, there's like one key point. Yeah. There's, you really only need to do one thing. Yep. Yep. That's be there for that. Yep. Yep. But everything else he did show up for as well.

Sh. But it was just like, he was kind of the only thing in my life at that moment that I was, that I felt sure about and going through, like there was something so beautiful about writing the letter for my own personal statement for the J fff. And maybe I'll go back and read it. Maybe I'll share it if people wanna see it.

Oh, that would be nice also. Yeah. And so, but also to your point, the whole process of reaching out to my rabbi, who I adore and being like. Hey, rabbi, just curious. I'm applying to this thing. Would you be willing to write me a letter? And she was like, oh my God. Of [00:39:00] course. And so then, you know, it opens the door for like, oh, now I get to talk to my rabbi about this, who I love.

Right? It kind of forced you a little bit to be open. Mm-hmm. And she was like, we have a Jewish fertility group. Do you wanna come to the meetings? Also? Do you just wanna talk? And I'm like, I always wanna talk to you, first of all. That's so nice. And then I got to read her statement and, and. Especially when you're in a dark moment or a hard moment to read the words of somebody who has absolutely nothing to gain.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Hannah: Has no obligation beyond just like being a decent person to say nice, not just nice things about you, but like, I don't know if you know from rabbis, but they don't keep it on the surface level. They go deep. They go deep. Oh, they 

Sarah: say the, it's likes when I'm reading them. Sometimes I feel like I'm reading some kind of sermon, but it's like a personal sermon about a couple or an individual.

Oh my God, I know. 

Hannah: What a beautiful way to describe it. It, it was like to see myself reflected in that way. In someone else's eyes was a lifeline for me. I mean, like I said earlier, I struggle with depression. My family, I hope family has [00:40:00] mental health. This last year, November, December, January of this past year was as hard and as dark of a depressive episode as I remember having ever gone through, sorry.

Thank you and the hormones super helpful. Yeah, I was gonna say that did not help. It's just, it was not easier. That'll do it. I'll say that. Yeah. But you know, there were all these bright spots, so it was like these pin pricks of light that like reminded me that there was something waiting on the other side.

And you know, sometimes the best thing you can ever say is just hang on. The thing I'm most grateful that my mom ever said to me in one of the hardest, my first real breakup from a really long term. We were together for four years. We owned a condo together. It was ca, it was a also a catastrophically toxic relationship, of course.

And then when it ended, I felt like I was just gonna die. I was like, I don't know how people can remain alive when they feel like this. Right? How do I not just die of this feeling? And my mom said this too shall pass. And it's like all you can [00:41:00] say, I mean all, you can't say it's gonna get better. You can't say because 

Sarah: you don't know.

Yeah, just hanging 

Hannah: in there, it sometimes is the best thing you can say and all these little lifelines that were coming to me. So it was like the opportunity to reflect on myself in that way and ask myself like, what are my values? And write that out in a personal statement. The opportunity to then open the door for a meaningful conversation with someone whose entire life is about supporting people in hard times.

Thank you, rabbi. Yeah. I love you Rabbi Rachel. I know. And you know, and then getting to see myself through her eyes was so. Beautiful. And then getting the phone call from you guys. I was like at a work trip in Palm Springs of all places, and I was like, oh my God, I have to take this call. And I ran outside and it was like, Hey, guess what?

I have some great news. And it was just like tiny affirmation after tiny affirmation that keeps you going. Yeah. And I was just like, yes. Victory. And then it was like, in your email, you're gonna get this information from the Hebrew free loan. Then they, they stepped into and were like. [00:42:00] Congratulations. It just, it light is contagious and this whole process is, it's heavy and it's hard, but it's that point of light, and if you can poke other little holes in the darkness that's in front of it, it can let more and more little light shine through and as hard and long and expensive and tiring, and blah, blah, blah, as this process has been.

Those moments of support and of community and of encouragement and of, I hope is too simple of a word for it. Yeah. It's a reminder that things are good, that people are good and that they take care of each other for no good reason other than sometimes people need to be taken care of. 

Sarah: Yeah. I was just imagining it like there's, people are all walking next to you or behind you or with you Yes.

However you wanna put it. Like all rooting for you in including me. Yes. Including, right, like we're all there. Yes. And that's like, it really is. That's. It is a beautiful thing and it is true like that you have this group of people, like your cheerleaders, whatever you wanna [00:43:00] call it. Yeah, 

Hannah: yeah. 

Sarah: All, all just rooting for you.

Hannah: It is. It's all these people are just walking beside me and they're like, it's gonna be okay. We got you. This too shall pass. 

Sarah: Yeah, 

Hannah: it's true.

Sarah: And you, it's funny you mentioned the, like, just the timing of everything and like the six months and all that. I mean, that's one of the other things that's been really important to us. And it, it's, it can be tricky just in terms of like accounting and things like that, practicalities, but we have a very quick turnaround time, um, and a rolling admissions process or applications so.

You know, I, if you apply, like you can apply at any time. There's no de set deadlines, which I think were unique in that fact. And whenever you apply, that's sort of a clock starts ticking at that moment. And within four weeks we will, we'll get you an answer about your grant award. And it's so critical that is so big and, and I probably shouldn't say this, but [00:44:00] occasionally we're able to even rush application because we know that time is of the essence.

And if you miss a, you miss it. You gotta wait for your period to come so that you could then get on the medication all over again and start all over again. And I've been there again. I felt that frustration. So it's really. I love working for an organization that kind of gets that. Yeah. And knows that like we need to get these people their grant award decisions as quickly as possible.

Yeah. And then we're trying to streamline everything. I've streamlined the process from when you get that award to like signing your little contract. So it goes directly to the clinic so that they can invoice us J fff. Mm-hmm. So that we can then pay. Because you know, for those of you listening who don't know, a lot of fertility clinics will not let you start treatment until you're fully paid.

Mm-hmm. Um, which, you know, on one hand, like it's a business, you can't blame them. But on the other, that can be. Really frustrating as a Yeah. Patient. 

Hannah: And it's very, very, very hard to get any other form of funding assistance. Like you can have a very healthy income and an excellent credit score and you [00:45:00] still almost never get those zero interest or low interest loans for fertility.

Almost never. And they always want partner information. So let's say you are a single mom by choice. You're on your own shit. They, it's, yeah. And it's, they, it's almost impossible to get them such a shame. And it's not, to your point, it is not cheap, right? And so it's such a barrier. And so the fact that you are there and that you do it quickly and that you're like living in reality and like dealing with circumstances, it's huge.

Is there anything in the fertility space that you are seeing right now that you think it's important for people to be aware of or that you find particularly troubling or that you find really encouraging or that you just wanna complicate people thinking about it? 

Sarah: The good part, I like to start with positive.

The good thing is that, well, number one, the destigmatization is happening, right? It's still there, but like I really do feel like things have. Changed and it's the people are much more aware and understanding and out there and open with their journey. So that's a good thing. Also, technology. Yay.

Technology. I do think there are a lot [00:46:00] of developments in the field that are coming. Whether it's AI or, or other things focusing on the male. Mm-hmm. But sometimes we forget that like 50% of infertility is due to the male. Mm-hmm. And it's so much easier and so much less invasive to test the male. So there's a lot of developments happening that I think will make IVF hopefully more, have higher success rates and maybe be less, maybe less hormones, less involved, whatever you wanna call it.

So those are positive things. However, there's a lot that I'm very troubled by, specifically, I think. There's a push now to talk about, oh, maybe we should limit the amount of embryos that are created in IVF. And that is so troubling to me and, and people out there, some of you might be thinking, well, so what's the big deal?

Like you only need one, right? No, you need ker to get one, right? If you're lucky, like those are the odds. The doctors like to see the attrition. Attrition, and it's just part of the process. And if doctors are kind of handcuffed by these restrictions, then. It's gonna be a really long road, even as it is, it's hard enough for people [00:47:00] to have success with IVF.

So you're essentially like ending a lot of people's chances of ever. Yeah, being successful with IVF, so that's super troubling to me. Also, everyone's waiting with bated breath to find out what happens with the domestic policy recommendations. So should Donald Trump asked for them? They were, they were. He has them.

We dunno what he's doing with them, but even in the ask for them, there was definitely some language that indicated like. This is really for heterosexual couples only. It's sort of seemed like, to me personally, this is not speaking on JFS behalf, but just my own. Mm-hmm. It seemed like it was deliberately leaving out couples that we, couples and individuals that we do give grants to, which are same sex single parents by choice, et cetera.

So if any of you out there are listening, you can go back and look at the executive order asking for recommendations and read it yourself and see. So that's troubling to me because I just worry about people, some of our grantees, some of our clients who are on their family building journeys, who, you know, who knows what's gonna come out of these [00:48:00] recommendations.

So I'm nervous. I'm like hopeful there's like part of me that's toe full. Yeah. Um, but about I'm more, I think I'm more nervous than anything. I think people like to say, oh, well he, he's gonna make IVF free. Some people think it already is, which is not like psa. Oh, its not, not, Hey, I'm like, I'm here for it.

Send me the check. I would love that. I wish that was true. Game changer. Right? But like even if it mandates insurance coverage. Okay. Well, it's only for, because the way we do insurance in this country, it's only for people who work for companies that are large enough that are gonna meet that minimum employee requirement to be part of that mandate.

Hannah: And way most insurance covers IVF to some degree. 

Sarah: Yeah, to some degree. But it's not enough or, and, or, yeah. I mean, and don't cover egg freezing almost ever on its own. Oh, yeah. No, and I actually, we just got an application from someone who their insurance covers, IUI, except. I'm trying to think of the language that the insurance company used, but it basically, their insurance basically told 'em they'd have to do 12 rounds of IUI [00:49:00] to basically be.

Then considered infertile and then they would cover it. So yeah, we, I mean, this is an evolution of Jewish Fertility Foundation. When it was started, we only, the grants were only for people who did not have insurance. 

Speaker 3: Mm. And, and, 

Sarah: you know, plenty of applications were coming in, but what we realized was like, oh, there are lots of people with insurance who also can't afford to actually complete their treatment.

And so now we're, we open up to people with insurance and we have lots of people of who have insurance, quote unquote, and are still like, but it's gonna cost us $30,000 out of pocket. Even with that in, and, you know, we are teachers 

Hannah: for example. Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh. 

Sarah: Our, are we supposed to take no. Right?

Right. So we just, we really wanna remove that barrier to accessing the treatment as mu as much as we can. 

Hannah: Yeah, what a very awesome thing that you guys are doing, and I thank you. I'm so personally grateful and I'm so grateful on behalf of the Jewish community, of which I'm a part. Places [00:50:00] like DC are really hurting right now when it comes to thinking about how Jewish lives are valued.

Yeah. And so thank you. For valuing Jewish lives and valuing 

Sarah: lives in general. Of course. And thank you for, you know, having this platform to share and to involve people, and to educate people. That's huge. I just want people to know we're there. You know, we're out there, we're here for you. Uh, we want you to take advantage of our.

Many support services, and even if you don't live in one of our 10 communities, we have so much support available out there. For anyone out there listening who went through an IVF journey or a family building journey of any kind, we would love to have you as a volunteer fertility buddy yourself. We just do like a 30 minute training, virtual training that everyone who's a JFS fertility buddy does, and then you're in our system.

Uh, we learn about your journey so that we match people up with you who are kind of have a similar situation. Um, it's a great, super easy way to volunteer or give back, get matched up with someone who's currently going through it and help them be that mentor for them and, and walk [00:51:00] alongside them as well.

It's really fun and easy. 

Hannah: Amazing. Well, you just keep on giving back. I really appreciate it. I speaking, you know, not just on behalf of myself, my future babies. Thank you. 

Sarah: Aww. Well I love that and thank you so much and you keep on keeping on and doing what you're doing and also we're rooting for you. I'll be waiting and waiting for any updates that you wanna share.

Go to a bath. 

Hannah: Thanks for listening to Jew ish. If you like what you hear, please give us a follow and don't forget to tell a friend who might be a little Jew curious. It really is the best way to help people find us. Also, make sure you check out the show notes for a glossary of terms you might have heard in this week's episode.

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